The Problem With Bike Kulture
by EL CHAVO!
I’ve tried my best to tolerate this new bike Kulture that has made camp in LA, attempted to see the positive aspects it can contribute to our city, but more and more I just can’t stand the way it manifests itself. And it saddens me to see how such a great idea can turn into shit so quickly: a practical and healthy option that challenges the car culture devolves into a sanctimonious act of liberal defiance, doused with a heavy dose of machismo. I’m pretty sure I’ll regret writing this but fuck it; the unnecessary baggage of an otherwise worthy goal needs to be called out.
Before you conclude I hate bike riders, let me just say that even though I’m mostly a pedestrian and car driver, I also ride a bike. Some of my friends are bike riders, so I can’t be a bikeist! And when I was around 12, I built my own chrome and red GT Pro Series BMX that I pieced together from parts I bought at the Rosemead Swap Meet. It was my pride and joy, up until the day it got stolen. I even contributed to an art installation that dealt with this very issue. So yeah, I understand the love one can have for a bike.
But this bike Kulture stuff and the attitudes they bring to the city is just beyond me: why is a form of transportation being elevated to an ideology? How did the simple pleasure of bike riding become an excuse for kids to get all moralistic against cars? Is the world so bereft of positive values that the notion of bike riding can take on such a significant role as an identity marker? It must be lean times in the marketplace of meaning when you so deeply identify with the way you get from point A to point B, even at the expense of the rest of the people around you.
Though there are a few reasons to critique this new bike Kulture in LA, the one thing that really puzzles me is the way the bike ideologues have taken on the worst traits of the rude FTW driver and the cocky yes-I-am-immortal Jr. High School pedestrian. If you’re trying to get people out of their cars, doesn’t it make sense to play nice and share the road with the rest of us?
This weekend I encountered one of the worst examples of the rude bike rider, a young and hip Latina seemingly buoyed on her sense of two wheel superiority. Even though Monte Vista in HLP is wide enough to fit both cars and bikes, she chose to stay in the traffic lane. Fair enough, “you are traffic”. But then she proceeded to reach into her backpack to look for something, slowing down to a crawl as she pretended to rummage through her stuff for that one thing she needed immediately . Even though she could have easily pulled over to the right (there weren’t even any cars parked on this stretch) she stayed in the middle of the traffic lane as if to prove some point, and never pulled anything out. Yeah, I get it, I’m the chump going 5 mph because you hate my transportation. This went on for a little bit, her fellow bike rider had already pulled over and I think was trying to get her to stop being a jerk, to no avail. At the 4 way stop sign ahead, she suddenly sped up -without stopping- to force a left-turning truck to hit the brakes so as to not hit her. While other drivers were taken aback by the potential disaster that had just been averted, she was laughing at how much power her bike riding body was wielding. She ran the next stop sign as well, this time holding her hand out to a braking car. It would be easy to say this was just a solitary example of a jerk but I think there’s something about the bike Kulture that encourages this sort of anti-everyone else behavior.
If this were the first time I’ve encountered this animosity towards car drivers, that would be one thing. But I’ve had my fair number of encounters with these young bike punks to know its not isolated. It’s odd mostly because there are some good and thoughtful projects within the biking scene, like the great resources of the Bike Kitchen and the Bike Oven that (at least to my knowledge) don’t encourage this sort of behavior. If you wanted to block my car in for some protest or action ala Critical Mass, I would understand. Why not prove your pro-bike point like that one rider I usually see passing up all the cars stuck in a traffic jam? But to deliberately increase the level of messed-uped-ness in the city, and become just like all the other thoughtless car driving fools that hate on bike riders, now that’s just wrong.
PS. For the record, I took a picture of this person when we finally managed to get by, and she responded by saying “Hey don’t do that.” I wanted to post the picture, but in the interest of not contributing to messed-up-ness and since my friend thought that would be pretty mean, I’m keeping it offline.
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Comments(112)
I think: just as there are shitty drivers, there are shitty bicyclists. And since it seems(?) that more people are on bikes, so more assholes by sheer numbers.
?Qué no?
But yeah, I stay safe out there. I’m not going to piss off a driver just to make a “point.” Fuck that, I need to get to work/school/party.
I totally hear you. Being a recreational rider and part time bike commuter I’ve seen exactly what you are talking about. Even on Critical Mass rides I see some peeps act like jerks to car drivers, I thought the point of Critical Mass was to prove that riding a bike was a great alternative, safe and fun. When some decide to ride on the opposite side of the road, take up three lanes when all we need is one or two, we are just looking like jerks on bikes.
I do think more peeps will end up on bikes as gas prices rise. Thus there will be more jerks and unfortunately is will affect good riders. Like the Latino man in your photo, Raza is already commuting in big numbers on bikes. They aren’t on the fancy fixed gear, or vintage, imported bikes most of the jerks are on, they are truly just getting around town. Worst case scenario: Drivers might want to get back at a jerk bike rider and because one might look like they have a trust fund ready for an attorney and the other looks they are here without papeles, who do you think might get bumped off the road?
At the same time, bike riders do put up with a lot of shit from drivers who are too busy on cell phones and changing radio stations. This kind of stuff is more scary than having to wait a few extra seconds or minutes ’cause of one jerk bike rider. Your car can kill. A bike can just delay or piss you off.
Everybody, just be cool.
I’m in the alternative transport community. One of the problems I have with bike kulture is it seems like all of them have cars. I’m anti-car.
Also they seem to be very intolerant of the right of public transit riders. In fact bike people seemed obsessed with talking crap about public transit. Bike people who have cars seem very obsessed with talking about the mode of transport that many people take because that’s the only way they can get to work or school or wherever it is that have to go.
While the alt transit community seems very supportive of bike kulture the opposite does not seem to be true.
Also I pretty much resent a group of people trying to paint themselves as oppressed when all they have to do is get off their fucking bike.
Oh and the minorities in the movement they are even more interesting pieces of work they are the same people of color who refuse to talk about or even entertain the idea of racism in America, but they will put up 1000 word post on the oppression of cyclist…are you fucking kidding me. You are a person of color and you can see cyclist oppression, but you don’t want to hear about or even discuss people of color oppression. The insanity.
Browne
I was wondering, can I bring my car on a Critical Mass ride?
Oh, sorry, guess not.
In the 1960s, bikes, especially white bikes, were a big symbol of radicalism.
I wrote a piece about it here
can I bring my car on a Critical Mass ride? cwm
Of course you can as long as it’s eco AND cool, like a diesel veggie oil running mercedes or a prius, if it’s not cool and eco, well if it’s a mini cooper it’s also ok, because those are pretty cool…
Browne
Phew! That’s good! I’m glad I can bring my car. It’s not eco, but it is kinda cool in the sense that it’s something that somebody’s grampa would drive (if fact, we bought it from an old Romanian grampa in our neighborhood). Being grampa friendly should definitely count for something, right?!
Booooo. Post the picture of her!
I totally agree with Browne about some cyclists acting as though they are uber oppressed just because they ride a bike. EVERY TIME I’ve seen a bicyclist pulled-over by a cop it has been a Mexicano for most likely some frivolous reason. I’ve never seen a “roadie” (you know those spandex clothed guys) pulled over.
Chavo, you should do a *new* Bike Art Project. See how the times have changed in the past 3 years. Though, you’ll probably hate on me because I do ride a track bike and like it.
When I get a chance I”ll send you a GIS map of pedestrian & cyclist deaths in L.A, gotta look in my old GIS files. You won’t be surprised to know that Latino males, like the senor with the Nike cap posted on your post, have the highest mortality rate on bikes.
I do agree with Pachuco 3000, this population tends to be overlooked when discussing bicycle master plans/policy. we need to change this.
Thanks for bringing up this topic. The majority of bike riders seem cool, but then you
get jerks like the ones dressed all in black, on black bikes with no lights, riding at night and breaking all traffic laws, who get furious at drivers who don’t see them.
There just seems to be too many characters around who are extremely focused and aware of every single one of their rights, while being ignorant and/or disinterested in any of their responsibilities
I cycle to work, and I actually ride a bike AT work, but I still don’t consider myself a hardcore cyclist. The female in your story seems part jerk, part suicidal, and part ignorant of bike laws.
I’ve seen alot of cyclists that will ignore stop signs as if they don’t pertain to them…which I dont understand. I guess they are “traffic” when they want to ride in the street, and “pedestrian” when they want to cross the street without stopping.
I don’t live in LA, I live in the OC, and I often do see alot of Latinos that are stopped by the police for infractions. But in honesty it is because they do NOT pay any attention to bike laws. They ride on the sidewalks, against traffic, no lights, ears plugged with headphones, all kinds of things that you are not allowed to do while riding a bike in public areas.
I have no problem with how you get around. IMO if you wanna pay $4 a gallon for gas, good on you, but I’ll save my money for trips on the weekend, viva Las Vegas (Plus my work pays $2 a day to ride a bike to work and it’s only 6 miles away) But I have had people actually throw things at me while I was out riding to work. I have been run off the road by some moron in a car that figured I had no right sharing his lane (even though I was basically in the gutter), causing me to try to get onto the curb (without a cutout) at such an angle that my rear tire hit, bike toppled, I rolled up over my bike and slid back first into a fire hydrant. The car just kept going, I guess he won that round.
You will find idiots be it in the car, on a bike, or public transportation. Unfortunately a large portion of CA seems to be bred to not care about anything but themselves.
“It must be lean times in the marketplace of meaning when you so deeply identify with the way you get from point A to point B, even at the expense of the rest of the people around you.”
You just named off about 50% of the driving public in LA who drive enormous SUVs, sport cars, status symbols all of which are outright gas guzzlers and fat people enablers. And the kicker is none of these people would be caught dead in a car of less perceived stature. Car drivers are just filthy animals. Bicycle Riders are the bridge between humans and pure energy.
As someone who bikes to work 4 out 5 days a week and could be described as a “bike commuter” since 1994, I totally agree with everything you say.
Just the other week during the one day I drive to work I nearly hit one of these “cyclists” because they blew completely blew a red light.
I would have felt horrible for hurting someone but at the same time, I would have had a very hard time being sympathetic for someone’s idiocy.
“Car drivers are just filthy animals.” And right on cue, Barfaloo proves my point.
Love Hate
Having dealt with a ton of bicycle people thru sharing a space with a bicycle collective I would have to say just how moralistic bike Kulture often is, not everyone but lots of them. If Mormans were hip on their bikes allot of these hipster cyclist would be Mormans fundamentalist.
THis whole post and comment thread is backed with a lot of bullshit. “Bike Kulture”?! What the fuck are you talking about dude?
One dumb person riding a bike and you’re trying to invent a whole new category of human being to write off?
Do I have to be a poor immigrant in order to like riding my bike to work every day, lest I become one of the horrible members of the “Bike Kulture”? I guess I better leave it to you bicycle purists in your cars being frustrated by having to tap the brake with your poor, tired, little toe for less than a second when you drive behind me while I reach for my cell phone in my huge hipster purse.
Having dealt with a ton of people through running a bike repair collective – I would have to say that the reasons people choose to ride bikes these days are as plentiful as the grains of sand on a beach. We come together in a noncommercial atmosphere to work with each other and share our collective knowledge about fixing and maintaining bikes, and also to simply socialize.
There are a few “holier than thou” bike riders out there, but don’t let their self-righteousness get in the way of the truth about cycling.
I just wanted to make two points:
First, if I hear somebody say that they are oppressed because they ride a bike, I’m going to run out and rent the nearest Hummer and come back and run them over! Puuleezzeee!!
Second, El Chavo, it occurred to me that the girl on the bicycle might not have been trying to piss you off because she was biking and you were driving so much as because you are an adult and she’s a youngster. With all due respect, my friend, she probably only had to take one look at you in order to see that all she had to do was slow down a bit in order to send you into an angry frenzy of social commentary and analysis! She’s probably reading this right now, cracking up! (Sorry, but I think that this is a strong likelihood… remember, one of the great things about being a teenager is that you can piss off adults almost immediately!!!
She just had to hit your “old man” button and then boing!!! )
Hmmm. Monte Vista has dotted-yellow lanes. Doesn’t sound like a problem with bicyclists to me. Sounds like you don’t know how to change lanes and go around people. I understand though. Car drivers often seem unaware that they can change lanes.
I wonder, how many times has a person in a car done something stupid while you’re driving? I bet a LOT more frequently than a cyclist. Funny how one incident with a cyclist creates a whole “Bike Kulture” (whatever the hell that means) prejudice out of you. Where are your rants about “Kar Kulture” for all the morons in BMWs who cut you off every week?
Oh. Wait. You can’t hate people in cars, because you’re one of them. It’s easier to create a new label, a new prejudice, a new “category” of OTHER people to loathe. Blame the bicycle riders! (But you get to squeeze-in your little story about your GT so you can seem “bicycle friendly”. Riiiight. Sort of like when people start stories with, “I’m not a racist, BUT…”)
I’m not impressed.
Hey Chavo, I think you touched some nerves on individuals who have social issues that go beyond cars vs. bikes.
This all makes me realize that on the road now I have to be on the lookout for
a-holes on four wheels AND two wheels.
Uh, Monte Vista is a single lane road so no, you can neither pass up cars or bikes.
It’s interesting how offended some bike riders are, I’m quite surprised by it. I know tons of people that ride bikes, have started bike collectives and have helped start some of the bike movements in this city and their critiques are similar to El Chavo. I have talked to some women that have felt groups like Midnight Ridazz have turned kinda macho.
The original essay and the Recognize project was put up on the C.I.C.L.E. site a couple of years ago. Where was the outrage then?
@chimatli
Ridazz = Macho? I think not. I’ve seen more women than ever on the last MR ride.
Just because there’s one “douche bag”, it doesn’t represent everyone on bikes. I think this article has given people fuel to think about where they stand on cycling and how they want improve and educate other cyclists to be better riders.
P.S. Car Kultur sux. Ride your bike.
I think you’re doing a bit too broad of an extrapolation in taking this incident and applying it to the whole, but you’re certainly entitled to your opinion and I wish people would refrain from attacking you for that.
Personally I’m not sure if I qualify as a kard-karrying member of this “bike kulture” of which you speak (mainly because my advanced age puts me way out of that target demographic), but I am a pretty dedicated urban cyclist both for work and play and it would be easy to extrapolate my safety-first (or at least second) practices and apply them positively to the whole just as you’ve made your solitary contact apply negatively to the whole.
Instead of being pigeonholed as a proponent of some sort of movement, fundamentally I see myself just a citizen who’s made a choice to ride his bike instead of drive his truck. If more people want to follow my lead, cool. If not, cool. I’m not on some sort of righteous trip trying to change the world — certainly not when I can’t even change the glacial process required by the city to lay down a bike lane.
I’m not averse to rolling through an intersection without coming to a full stop when I can do so without impacting any other cars or peds in the vicinity, but I’m also not some lane-hog perpetually averse to riding in the doorzone or even in the occasional gutter if I can do so safely. Overall I like to think of myself as pretty conscientious accommodating and aware and law abiding, and for damn sure if I had to get something out of my bag I’d pull the hell over not only for my own safety but because I don’t want to inconvenience anyone around me. To you I’m the exception to that rule.
The bottom line is how I interact with my fellow motorists is dictated on how they interact with me. Respect and share and all’s good. Don’t and I’m ready to defend my right to the road.
Most bikers are also drivers (or car riders) and anyone that claims they’re not just has to wait some time before they need access to a car. The point of this post was to call attention to the worst traits bike ideologues are taking on, a macho FTW approach this is short-sighted and just as stupid when they do as when some meathead car jerk is terrorizing everyone else. (And for the record, women can be macho as well!) It’s not just the one incident, but a pretty standard behavior the the bike scene people keep chalking up to those few rowdy kids, rather than a callous disregard for anyone not on bikes. Nobody is responsible for the actions of that girl except herself, but as the comments here prove, many are very quick to defend deliberately messed up and dangerous behavior just because “car culture sux”.
You can blame my tired little toe or that I don’t know how to change lanes, or that I just want to bash on riders. Whatever suits your needs. But for the sake of your cause, you might also try seeing and critiquing a very real part of your scene; the moralistic anti-driver jerks that don’t understand the concept of sharing the road.
Hi Borfo,
I agree car culture does suck. I would love to live in a city that was not based on individual car ownership. However, just because someone rides a bike doesn’t make them automatically free from critique. The tendencies in larger society can sometimes manifest themselves in even the most progressive and liberating organizations.
I have no direct experience with Midnight Ridazz, I’m passing on information from people who’d probably not want me to state who they are. My comments are based on discussions I’ve had with lots of bike folks who were instrumental in promoting bike riding here in Los Angeles.
Chimatli,
(excuse my run on sentences)
I agree with you. I think that there needs to be some focus addressed towards proper road etiquette for cyclists. Similarly I think there needs to be more of an awareness of the rights of cyclists on the road by motorists, who, from my observation, have no idea that cyclists do in fact have rights to the road and are not taken seriously. In fact I think most motorists scoff at cyclists as being jobless freaks who are just playing around and not taking life seriously, when in fact those people need to try to ride bicycles in a group setting in this city and realize how much fun and practical it can be. I want to see a change, and it is slowly happening. I guess I get defensive if I see others pooing on my ideal.
And to Chavo. I do agree that we cyclists need to look at our own scene and try to make it better. I appreciate that you think that and not condemn the whole scene like a lot of other people do. I hope you decide to ride with us more. We are a great community. And I see a rise in this movement. Help us take it in the right directions.
-Borfo
Has anyone seen this short comic video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAOHhV1EFe4
It pretty much epitomizes the negative traits we have developed in the cycling community. Even we who ride can laugh at it in recognition of some truths.
I think we all understand where this article was coming from. It just seemed to have a narrow focus on who we were, and it has irked some who ride.
We still – “Ride On”!
I have a question Barfo, just for reference. If it comes off accusatory I apologize in advanced, but do you are your partner have a car?
What percentage of Midnight Ridazz have cars?
I’m anti car culture and I’m amazed at how many “hardcore” cyclist have cars or access to one by a signficant other.
Browne
We both own cars.
I have a natural gas powered car that I use commute to work.
My wife has a hybrid that she takes to El Segundo every day.
I try to ride to work at least twice a week and I am hoping to improve that even more. I would like to get to the point where I don’t rely on a car, but that doesn’t seem completely feasible in my situation. My wife is slowly getting turned on to group rides and bicycles. We bought a tandem and that has made things easier. Still have a ways to go to get her into riding, but she supports my wishes.
About Midnight Ridazz – I could only tell you about the core group that have bonded and ride regularly with ride their bikes almost daily to work and a lot of them do not own cars. But I would say only 5 percent of all people who participate in midnight ridazz are car free. The culture of cyclists that are really tight in the cycling community, they are mostly car free. I think their lifestyle and motivation has inspired myself and others who ride in these various group rides that have been growing. The culture is diverse, and growing. Some say it is a fad. I say it’s a movement.
Sorry to burst the image, but most of the thousand of people who make MR ridez are still car people. Those who are dedicated and embedded into the cycling community are not car dependent. (I would say maybe over a hundred. – Just a guess). I support those who are “Hard-Core”, and I admire their efforts and wish to emulate them.
We need to improve. But, we got to start somewhere though.
-Borfo
“But for the sake of your cause, you might also try seeing and critiquing a very real part of your scene; the moralistic anti-driver jerks that don’t understand the concept of sharing the road.”
The interesting thing about “our cause” is that it is not “a cause”. Bike riding is a practical means of achieving an end – getting around in a healthy, fun, clean way.
How would anyone’s “critique” make any difference in the behaviour of cyclists when we live in a culture that produces people ignorant of the law and the best methods for urban cycling?
Critiques are not going to help anyone in this case. Spend a little bit of time thinking about how to affect changes in the way people ride bikes instead of finding faults in the way they do things – and you’ll have something worth talking about.
I really appreciated Julio’s bit on bike riding. Good instructions for drivers:
http://julioac.is-a-geek.org/wordpress/?p=24#more-24
Why can’t bike people supplement their transport needs with the public bus or rail, possibly if they did they might be more understanding of other members of the alt-transportation.
Possibly they wouldn’t ride in front of a bus, because it’s their right. Yeah pretty freakin fair to slow down a but full of working class people, because you got a hobby that you think is real fun, like tattoos.
It’s hard for me to care what someone who has a car says in regards to cars and cars being rude or whatnot, if you have a car you’re part of the problem.
Browne
“This weekend I encountered one of the worst examples of the rude bike rider, a young and hip Latina seemingly buoyed on her sense of two wheel superiority.”
I agree with you. Based on your story, it sounds like she was an elitist moron.
Probably because she’s Latino. They’re all the same. Oh. Wait. That would be racism.
Probably because she’s a woman. They’re all the same. Oh. Wait. That would be sexism.
Probably because she’s young. They’re all the same. Oh. Wait. That would be ageism.
Probably because she’s on a bicycle. They’re all the same. Oh. Wait. That would be stupid.
It took you all day to come up with that? Deep.
“The Bike “Scene” Is All The Same”
Did you just try to compare bike kulture with being an ethnic minority and to having a vagina?
You think cyclist history in the US compares to the genocide of native americans, slavery, the bracero program, the internment camps, the chinese exclusion act, women not being able to buy property on their own in some places in the US until the 1970s, how people without proper paper work are treated right now.
You can get off a bike whenever you want and when you do, it doesn’t leave your meat exposed.
Browne
Browne,
I don’t think that “The Bike Scene Is All The Same” made that great of a point – but your comeback is pretty lame as well.
This noble device has done a lot for people with and without vaginas. It is explicitly excluded from roadway performance measurement and funding in the U.S. This modal discrimination is real and has had a negative effect on human life.
As an example of what bicycles can do for people, here is a quote from the gold standard of all information, Wikipedia:
“The bicycle was recognized by nineteenth-century feminists and suffragists as a “freedom machine” for women. American Susan B. Anthony said in a New York World interview on February 2, 1896: “Let me tell you what I think of bicycling. I think it has done more to emancipate women than anything else in the world. It gives women a feeling of freedom and self-reliance. I stand and rejoice every time I see a woman ride by on a wheel…the picture of free, untrammeled womanhood.”
So, the bike has at least something to do with human rights and having a vagina.
I think it’s outrageous that bike scene person would compare the racism and sexism to bike kulture.
So Ubray if you believe in the cyclist oppression, do you believe in the oppression of minorities or do you think they are just making it up? I got a post up about the bus and why bus riders can’t get tax breaks, my assertion is because its a poor people of color thing and no one values what those people do to help the environment? So what do you think about that since you are being open minded here.
Do you think that minorities just whine too much, I know you’re a minority, but so what, that doesn’t matter lots of minorities like to pretend that certain things aren’t happening, are you one of those people?
Lots of things have to do with human rights, but don’t trivialize real struggles with the struggles of people who have a car and have a bike, because if you have access to a car cycling is just a hobby you are REALLY into.
And that’s what it is if you have a car it’s a freaking hobby.
If you have access to a car, being a cyclist isn’t anything, but a glorified hobby turned into a kulture, because lots of guys with power in LA think it’s fun and have the power to turn it into whatever they want.
Have you been denied a job owing to your bike?
How about housing?
How about poor treatment in an eatery?
Ever have a teacher question your ability because you have a bike?
Ever had your dad stopped while you were on his bike, because some cop wanted to have some fun?
I’m going to bet the white guys that are part of bike kulture have never, ever had any of these things happen to them, so seriously they can go fudge themselves if they want to pretend that a two wheel vehicle even compares a little bit to being a Latino without the proper paperwork in this country, to being a poor chicano or black currently, or the lynching of black men in the south in the 1950s, it is not the same.
And bike people need to have respect for other people outside of their circle, all other alternative groups do, but bike people do not. They are like a gang, but with money, so it’s so much freakin worse.
And look I don’t hate you guys, I just think you guys are a bit closed minded and extremely ignorant and arrogant if you think you’re even a little big like an ethnic minority.
Browne
Your rant-o-meter is obviously set to “bat shit crazy”.
Look, I enjoy a good straw man argument knock-down on the internet as much as anyone else. You’re being ridiculous.
You obviously do not think that anything that has to do with bikes is serious enough to merit anyone’s attention. Unfortunately, your disinterest is not shared by other people, so you come off sounding like an over-educated jackass searching for a victim to spout your “Ise been oppressed!” bullshit to.
Riding a bicycle should be a relatively neutral thing – it is just a way of getting around after all. Bicycling did help push American culture in the favor of women’s rights. Bicyclists fought long and hard to see that Americans roads are publicly funded, and well-paved.
This is not a rebellion against Jim Crow laws, but it is something that anyone riding a bike can think about and be a little bit proud to be a part of in some small way.
I’m sure you’ve got plenty of other straw man arguments you are going to set up, and subsequently kick over, yelping and hollering and wetting your pants in excitement, so I’ll let you run along and get typing.
Also, it is the height of stupidity to assume that just because someone has pale skin in the U.S. that they have not had a hard lot in life.
Most of the people I know who ride bikes regularly have had a hard time of things. Some times, that is what drives them to ride bikes, for legal reasons or for personal reasons.
You can take a look at what type of people hang out in the “bike scene” and try telling me what a “bike scene person” believes. I hang out with a lot of those folks, and I couldn’t begin to know what they think about certain issues, because they come from many different age, social, and demographic groups.
Here are some photos of people in the “bike scene”:
http://ubrayj02.blogspot.com/2008/04/bike-oven-image-motherload.html
http://midnightridazz.com/gallery.php
Oh,no you didn’t…
“…searching for a victim to spout your “Ise been oppressed!” bullshit to.”
Regardless of how you feel about this debate, this kind of derogatory language is totally uncalled for. I’ve been disturbed by some of your other snipes relating to “immigrants” and then this sexist ditty:
“…so I’ll let you run along and get typing.”
Dude, you need to check yourself. And you wonder why some folks in Northeast LA have a problem with macho dudes in the Bike scene.
“Dude, you need to check yourself. And you wonder why some folks in Northeast LA have a problem with macho dudes in the Bike scene.”
browne makes sure everyone on the internet knows she has dark skin, and that she has to deal with all sorts of things because of that. She used bizarre stereotypes about bicycle riders, so I used a bizarre stereotype about people with dark skin.
You can read into what I’ve written any way you please. Thanks for reading it, at least.
I agree with Chimatli, you need to check yourself ubrayj02. Heated discussions are one thing, but the “Ise been oppressed” remark crosses the line. An apology is in order. And don’t be like so many other white guys on LA blogs that try to backtrack by saying “it’s just a word” or “you all are too serious”.
The narrow mindedness of some bike ideologues makes me think of this story in the paper yesterday, about PETA supporting lab-grown meat: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-meat23apr23,1,2800716.story
In an effort to not kill animals they want to introduce even more vile food concepts to the world. When you get so focused on just your one issue and can’t see the connections it has with the rest of the world, then you really are losing touch.
I have noticed that many folks with serious chips on their shoulders (about not being “oppressed enough”, or recieving some semblence of wealth or privelege) tend to overdo their own personal struggles in an attempt to overcompensate, and attack folks who have genuinely been oppressed on a major scale to feel batter about themselves. The most obvious and prevalent version of this is white men or wealthy folks pulling the “you are discriminating against me” crap about minority or gender struggles and empowerment ideologies/organizations, but it is manifesting quite rapidly among the “liberal” entitled masses that are rediscovering our central city, especially the bikerider and hipster genre. Instead of looking at black or brown (or women or gays or whatever) oppression compassionately (or even realistically), they tend to view the victims in a cynical competitive manner, dying to find something to “get over them” on. Minorities and oppressed peoples also tend to do this when they develop a consciousness about social issues and what’s right/wrong without the internal emotional work needed to act ont he issue in a mature manner
I cut my self off by accident,
Anyways, like overly radical idealogues, these folks tend to be “looking for something” at all times at whatever cost. As a Latino guy from the barrio who sometimes comes off as a bit unrefined, I get a lot of hostility from many of these insecure folks, and it took me a while to figure out what their motivation was (beyond over self righteousness). Most of these people do not realize how arrogant and assholish they come off in their eternal quest to look and be viewed as cool becuase they do not come from a background of struggle where one HAS to be aware of their surroundings and considerate to those around them. I do not know ubray that well, and actually like a lot of what he says, but his actions have made me think of him in that light.
El Chavo noted several times that he is complaining about a FACET of the bicycle folks (not all of them) and that it is from SEVERAL experiences and the opinions of folks around the scene, of which I tend to agree. From my own experience of ubray attacking me personally, basically telling me to be quiet because (I think) he did not agree with my position, and then noting my list of bonafied facts to back up my opinion was “just complaining to complain”; it seems as if he is very “black and white” (a telltale sign of a chip on one’s shoulder) and has a penchant to attack people and tell and insist that they stop making opinions he does not agree with. Pretty annoying if you ask me, and the epitome of the arrogance that annoys the shite out of me when dealing with these young hipster-urban-bike folks which my cholo-relative ass lumps into one group (like the classic rock stoners and punkers I sold drugs to in highschool), I really wish he had the humility to check his behavior because he seems allright otherwise.
I also want to note (as El Chavo did), that I fully support the bike use and whole non arrogant bike movement in LA. I too have fond memories of my personally built mongoose and diamondback bikes, and the Downtown missions over the bridge on them, and how pissed i was when one got stolen and I was beaten up for the other (remember drilling holes in dice so they could be put in your spokes, how about Rudy’s bikes?). I also have met TONS of bike folks who are genuinely cool people with no shoulder chippage. Cheers to them, jeers to highland park hipsters not realizing cars will squash them.
and to even it out, jeers to assholes drivers, all 7 million of them.
Very interesting. Riding a bike is hard. Bad knees.
I think most of the people who I am in an online argument with right now would like to agree with me, if I weren’t such an asshole about things. I’m sorry about that. If it makes you feel any better, my word is basically worthless. I have no power or control over your life, nor would I want to have it. Some people said some things I disagree with, I shot back, and I’m not ashamed or embarassed about what I’ve said.
You can attribute as many lame, straw-man, arguments you want to me. I’m “macho”, “white”, or racist – whatever. I have worked my ass off trying to make my neighborhood a better place to live. When someone tries to write off something I love as being too white, too male, too arrogant, etc. I will respond in kind.
I am a rude, hateful, person. My ideas do not come from a place of happiness and light – they come from a source of anger and contempt.
I’m sorry, I’m not running for office, so I don’t “check myself” in order to protect anyone else’s feelings of entitlement about being oppressed. I’m also sorry that this has turned into a discussion about what an asshole I am (which I would readily admit) instead of what a heaping pile of bullshit this idea of the an arrogant “Bike Kulture” is.
When I try to get elected, go ahead and pull up whatever quotes you want to run negative mailers with or whatever. Until then, I would suggest trying to address the content of what I’ve written. The psychological puffery of someone trying to guess where I am coming from (because I am “white”, “male”, “arrogant”, etc.) is pointless (and false) and doesn’t really serve to counter anything I’ve written.
Oh, that response. I figured you would be too right and your ideas too perfect that you can’t fathom an apology, it comes with the territory. Your good works don’t excuse your lousy insults.
I’ve already been written off by Brown for owning a car. (I’ve got to admit, she affected me to think about it) I’ll probably be even more shunned for speaking my mind here, but here’s my final piece.
Going back to Midnight Ridazz and cycling in groups like Critical Mass and the like:
I find that there is an inclusiveness that embraces anyone of any financial status, race, gender, sexual preference. It becomes a community where people get out of cars and get together and ride and have fun. (I don’t see any elitist, macho crap you guys are talking about here.)
Cars have become a status symbol for some people. For me, bicycles tend to break that status level image. Except for some hard core roadie types. But even then, a bike is a bike. I found my bike for 15 dollars at a yard sale and got it fixed up at the Bike Oven and I’ve been riding now more than I ever have in all my life. It’s not some super duper carbon frame thing, and I can still haul ass.
Bicycles can eliminate racism and sexism by getting people together.
Riding a bicycle in groups sends a message whether we are trying to or not. It makes people who never ride curious or those who always drive nervous. There’s something going on. It’s a bicycle revolution. People are coming together to do what they want and peace and flowers and all that jazz.
Join us…
Or learn to practice patience – Because we aren’t going away.
Way back up the thread Browne wrote, “if you have access to a car cycling is just a hobby you are REALLY into.”
At first read of that I felt some indignation, but upon further review I really can’t disagree with that assessment, even if it’s so strictly drawn and implies any entry I might make into enviro heaven will be tainted with an asterisk because of some sort of lack of absolute commitment on my part. Personally I prefer a wider-angle POV than that provided by absolutes.
I own a truck and will always maintain some form of four-wheeled transportation because it’s a tool I need and use. I certainly hope one day to reduce my dependency on oil with a hybrid or electric conveyance, but until then it’s me and my ’97 Nissan pick-up taking the dog to the vet or hauling the load from Costco. If that means I’ll never be more than a cycling hobbiest in Browne’s eyes, that’s her prerogrative.
Personally, I’m not much a fan of absolutes, but I’m an encourager of alternate points of view and we’ve seen a bunch resulting from El Chavo’s post. The dialogue might not have been constructive all the time, but it’s better than a vacuum.
Anyway, I’m rambling and more than likely way off topic so I’ll close with respect for El Chavo, Browne, Art, Ubrayj and Borfo and everyone and a FWIW: In the past 10 days I’ve put eight miles on my truck and 250 miles on bike, so I’d say I at least qualify for “REALLY REALLY into cycling” status.
The one thing I don’t get about Ubray is that El Chavo specifically singled out the project he works on, Bike Oven as an example of the kind of community biking stuff that’s cool. Reading back through the post and comments, I’m wondering if folks really took the time to read people’s words or just got defensive because the post was somewhat critical.
I’m sure most people who have contributed to this discussion would much rather see a city based on alternative forms of transportation, I mean they said so explicitly. No one is anti-bicycle, some of us are just anti-moralism. I’m vegetarian and I criticize vegetarians who get all moral too.
Chimatli.
There is nothing really bad about El Chavo’s blog.
It was the LA Times Blog that referenced it that set us off. It seemed kind of brash, and it put us on the defensive… Kulturally speaking.
this one:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2008/04/dont-hate-me-be.html
Thanks for at least allowing us to dialogue with you all.
For urban bicycle intergration, predominantly of the pink skin, middle class head to the Netherlands but beware if you are a pedestrian.
Now that this thread has come to an end, I just wanna say f*ck cars and f*ck bikes. It’s all about the Walking Class!
http://www.thewalkingclass.org/
Walking: even John Zerzan can hate on it!
can’t*
My cycling friend said it best: bicycles are a rich man’s hobby.
It’s true. The mainstream bike culture is about racing on expensive, lightweight bicycles. The “alternative” is a counterpoint to that.
The former is effete, European, high-tech, elitist. The latter attempts to be childish, old-tech, and populist. Yet, at some level, it’s one is simply the child of the other. One is “Prog Rock” and the other is “Punk”.
Maybe it’s time to get away from this dualistic, dialectical style of thought, debate, and verbal sparring. Bike culture is multitudinous, and bike discourse is discursive, weaving like a drunk cyclist down a bumpy French road, or something like that.
Keep it eastside. Check out these photos of Dennison Cyclery in East LA. The oldest bicycle shop in LA.
http://www.schwinndreams.com/schwinn/Dennison%20Schwinn/
I want to say I don’t shun anyone for speaking their mind. I do mock people who are hypocrites.
People who go on and on and on about cars and how cars are bad, but have one.
Hey you can ride a bike, that’s great, but don’t talk crap about cars if you have one, especially not in a self righteous “we’re the future, you’re the past” way.
I mean that is such unbelievable bullshit. Keep it real for christ sake if you’re going to spell riders with two z’s.
Unless you can get off of your own addiction to cars, how are you going to guide anyone?
Also I find it way interesting that people who talk about bike kulture refuse to engage in a conversation about anyone else’s culture.
Seriously what a bunch of selfish, self-absorbed, egomaniacs certain people are.
And I’m not going to let this go and tie this crap up all nicely with some Kumbaya comment. No way I’m going to let that happen.
I hate people who try to stop people from talking by being “polite.” Polite does nothing for me.
Arrogance sucks. Hypocrisy sucks.
And since I’m not here to make friends, I’m going to keep saying unpleasant things.
I’m pretty sure Borfo that I’m the person that gets shunned owing to my ideas.
I think alot of rich guys with power think exactly like you (and you too Ubray, while your ownership of your racism is pretty refreshing, I guess on Metrorider in your little bus story when you kept mentioning the race of the black people, but no one else, did mean exactly what other dude called you on, nice….but you gave a real nice polite response, that I tried to buy, because I like to give people the benefit of a doubt) of course they probably have tattoos.
Though I will say I do think the whole bike thing is cool. I have a bike, I don’t have a car, so bike, walking, and public transit are the three things I do to get around.
Bike culture can bring people together, if cyclist make an effort and you guys don’t.
You don’t make an effort to understand people who walk. You don’t make an effort to understand the people who advocate for public transit, you just go on public transit boards so you can push your bike riding thing, even though you all seem to have cars (and you guys have cars and seem to try to hide it, that to me is such poseur crap, when you put little ditties about how you hate cars that implied you don’t have one.) You don’t make an effort to understand the struggles of people of color. You don’t care about bringing anyone together.
In my opinion you seem to just care about having fun.
That’s not bad, but stop trying to make it seem like you guys are a groundbreaking force that gives a shit you don’t. No one who actually does give a shit is even buy that, not even a little.
Browne
browne,
About this “racist” accusation, there are plenty of lame, untrue, criticisms I can either make up or borrow from other people to throw at the group you self-identify with. You decided to impugn the group I identify with (which is something much less than an ethnic group) with lame, untrue criticisms – so I did the same to you with some phony Sambo-talk.
I’m glad neither of us is going to apologize for what we’ve said. This is the internet, so for all I know you could be a Vietnamese house wife in Gardena with too much time on her hands.
It will be just like that wonderful movie Crash. I think I’ll go write a paper about this whole dialogue now.
And you are wrong when you say: “stop trying to make it seem like you guys are a groundbreaking force that gives a shit you don’t. No one who actually does give a shit is even buy that, not even a little.”
You keep hurling insults instead of any kind of evidence based argument, and we’ll see how far that gets you.
Arrr, tis a pissin match ye be after, mate
Thank god. I brought the thread back. I would have died a little inside if this would have ended with a Brady Bunch shot.
To Ubray
Hey don’t get all sensitive and dramatic. You’re the one that did the, “Ise been oppressed!” or as you say the Sambo talk.
Oh man and with that post you just made what you did worse. Not to me, I love people that have to be right, when they are so wrong, because they keep talking and talking and talking and talking.
And you’re such a coward. Why did you just call me a nigger or something…it was so subtle and so chicken shit. I’m surprised you didn’t try to wiggle out of that and say it was a typo or something, isn’t that what you usually do?
I’m not offended by your comment. I’m offended at your lack of guts.
Now if you had just called me a nigger, I would have known you weren’t false or weak, which I think you are now.
I think you’re a false little weak man.
I have lots of conservative friends, but they are consistent.
If you don’t agree with me that’s fine, but once you went there, well may not be racist, but you are prejudice, in the bad way. The really bad way.
Browne
PS Crash is a stupid movie. Let me add a really.
Crash is a really stupid movie.
LOLz. Crash sucked.
I got some other news for ubrayj – if you don’t have a car in LA, and it’s not by choice, you’re probably oppressed. Or you’re on the way to oppression, because a lot of jobs are unavailable to you.
There are exceptions, of course. Maybe we can think of someone who’s a professor who cycles and lacks a car, or maybe an engineer who lives in a nice neighborhood. But, these people are already working at a pretty high strata of society.
It’s a different story if you are an aspirant low-level manager, or nurse, or mechanic, or any member of the laboring middle class. You need a car, especially if you have kids and need to get around. Without a car, you’re stuck. If you don’t own one, you need to rent one occasionally.
The car is the way people get decent jobs and a leg-up in LA.
Cyclists transportation-slumming isn’t the wave of the future.
Well, I’d love to talk, but I’ve got to spend some time down at the country club with all of my rich white friends. We all bicycled in from our yachts.
Some dark skinned person got in my way during rush hour while I was biking in from the harbor (probably working on a Saturday – hah!) so I made sure to let him know that he was polluting the planet and generally carrying on like a bad poor person.
Oh these damned darkies and their cars! If only I could get them out of my way, so I can be a lean, green, vegan machine.
I wonder what is on one of the many satellite television channels I have on my T.V. screen that cost more than my Honduran domestic servant? Oh yes – Crash! One of my favorites! It won an Oscar, you know.
All this freewheeling about town has me tired. The heat from global warming, and grimacing at working class people, has tired me out.
Anyway, I’ve got some organic green country clubbing to do with my developer friends.
Oh we cyclists are so oppressed! If only those “niggas” in the “hoods” would understand!
Bus riders are a bunch of idiots who think that just because they are poor, they deserve yet another handout from us real tax payers.
If I see another one of these mopes with their slack jaws hanging out at a bus stop, I will throw my water bottle at them.
Of all the selfish, lazy, arrogant things for a person to want – these dopes can’t even use what god gave them to get around. They want the rest of us to pay to cart their sorry asses around town!
This Buss Kulture is just too much: lazy, arrogant, selfish, and slow.
Can you see why I took offense at what y’all wrote?
You traded in bullshit stereotypes about a group of people that do not match those stereotypes – people that are likely more of an ally than an opponent in the things you likely believe in.
I’m sorry I got cheap – but this was a pretty low discussion to begin with.
Not funny at all. And your apology blows. I really hope you never break a leg.
Wow Urbray02 you own Bike Oven and you are part of neighborhood clubs and you say these things?
I’m going to give you advice on a personal level, because I don’t think you really understand the world. Mainstream people don’t take comments like the above well. If you were a random poster, but you are like a person that people know.
I think you’re unbelievably ignorant and I don’t think that you get that what you say on the internet lasts forever.
As a human being who has empathy for other people, even ignorant people, such as yourself you should stop talking.
The statements that you are making right now leads to the ending of formerly successful capitalist endeavors. It ends you being the go to guy in the LA Times.
You want grants from the city, want to be a community builder you need to end this line of speaking right now, because I would hate to see what you do go away. If that happens I’ll fight for you though, because I believe in free speech.
_________________________________________________________
On a more universal level and selfish level, because I love this crap. Please keep going this is going to be a great thread. Bus riders are slackjaws now. i hope you know lots of your clients probably take the bus.
You’re giving my argument very expensive running shoes, I don’t even have to talk anymore.
You are doing it all for me. Wow. Double wow.
How many more racially insensitive comments are in that brain of yours. Are you a member of the Aryan Nation?
Bike Kulture Urbray has taken it upon himself to represent you, do you agree with his statements, your silence would be an agreement.
I don’t speak for people of color but apparently Urbray speaks for all of Bike Kulture. He’s designated himself as the leader.
Browne
PS people who ride the bus don’t think it’s a culture, that’s fucking stupid.
PPS no man i can’t understand why you made derogatory statements about my race because i don’t agree with the idea of bike kulture. i was debating an idea, not you, totally different and if you don’t get that…well keep commenting this is entertaining for me.
“people that are likely more of an ally than an opponent in the things you likely believe in.” Ubray
I am not aligned with any group. You will never, ever see me on a committee, in a club, I’m not even aligned with a political party.
I am aligned with ideas.
I’ve pissed off women groups, black groups, latino groups, progressive groups, i told people off at kpfk, i’ve had a gun pulled on me by nation of islam members, i got in a fist fight with a republican freak…so i’m not sure who you think i am. I can debate points for days, hours, years…I debated with a smarty pants at a coffee shop in hollywood for eight hours.
That’s how I stay consistent and not a pr piece for pseudo progressive organizations or a tool for oppression.
I refuse to be part of any group. That leads to groupthink, which leads to truth not being presented, which leads to oppression.
I would never be aligned with anyone who was a shameless hypocrite who defends it with bullshit.
So no, I’m pretty sure I’m not missing on anything by not riding my bike to a bar with you guys and posting pictures of my tattoos.
Browne
Holy jesus, I was writing those things to show what a terrible style of argument you employ!
Did I need to write “BEGIN SARCASM” and “END SARCASM” for you to get that?
Bravo – you are dumb. Neener neener.
Besides, I don’t even carry a water bottle in my water bottle cage. I carry Evian.
No one is buying your sarcasm thing. Sarcasm is when you don’t actually believe what you’re saying and you do.
I think you really do think black people suck, that’s ok, I don’t care, but I mean be honest. Everyone can read exactly how you think.
You think calling me a nigger in a chicken shit way is funny? That’s an ok way to make a point?
I think you do think bus riders are trash. It’s so obvious.
Be a man dude.
I’m done with conversing with you on this issue.
I’m not going to have a fake conversation with a fake person who when you call him on his bs, says things like, “I was joking” or “I was being sarcastic.”
Believe in something and say it with feeling, we’re not in high school anymore that sarcasm save is just out of date and played. This isn’t the 90s.
Browne
Unicyclists are out of control. Unicyclists are a menace to our safety. The other day I was riding my Segway on the sidewalk and a unicyclist slowed down in front of me to reach for his cell phone.
This greedy ideologue showed his disrespect for civil society by going slower than I wanted to. This is evidence that unicyclists are immoral people.
Unicyclists who lobby for pro-unicycling changes need to check themselves. An ethnic group in America has been oppressed – and these white boys think that unicycles are important?
Anyway, they are all homophobic, arrogant, cowardly people. Unicyclists have got to go.
Ubraj02:
‘“Bike Kulture”?! What the fuck are you talking about dude?
Do I understand correctly you own Bike Oven? If so, why the blatant ignorance? Or is being an unmitigated arsehole a borne part of you? If there is no such culture, how do you earn a living? This is your first comment on this thread, yet you seem to have quickly forgotten it as you lash out like an unreasonable idiot to insult folk for no other reason than your vested interest appears to have compelled you to forgo logic, reason and even a penumbra of civility. I cannot help but observe the first two as I eschew the latter on my way to tell you to fuck yourself.
‘I guess I better leave it to you bicycle purists in your cars being frustrated by having to tap the brake with your poor, tired, little toe for less than a second when you drive behind me while I reach for my cell phone in my huge hipster purse.’
Do you not own a car? If so, shut the fuck up, boy. If not, feel free to tell me likewise.
‘Critiques are not going to help anyone in this case.’ What kind of moron are you to posit such an outrageously insipid statement?
‘As an example of what bicycles can do for people, here is a quote from the gold standard of all information, Wikipedia:’
You are truly incorrigible in your idiocy. Boy, the OED is the gold standard, one appended by the Encyclopaedia Britannica. Any idiot can post misinformation to Wikipedia, even you.
‘There are a few “holier than thou” bike riders out there, but don’t let their self-righteousness get in the way of the truth about cycling.’
This I follow, despite you being a self-righteous schmuck; I will not let jerks on two wheels ruin my day no matter how much shit they spew from a bike collective. I still love riding my bike over the Brooklyn Bridge (when I can), in the South (such as Montgomery, AL, Atlanta, GA and Chattanooga, TN) as well as look forward to doing so along the L.A. River. Hell, I would even get hired on as a pedicab driver if the job were available, as I usta do that in the Village. (Ask me about the differential, folks, and I will bend yer ear on how ya should not lean lest you find the pavement coming up to kiss ya!)
But enough about how you negate your own “argument” in admitting that it is a personal attack (“Sambo-talk”? Are you fucking serious?! You merely lend weight to Browne and Chimatli’s collective argument) rather than something about the bike asses out there. I am white, I am ex-military, ex-cop and a former publisher of some 20 years, but only a jerk to the blinkered and insistently ignorant. So don’t think I don’t know how fulla shit you are; I doubt you have ever been in the midst of a firefight with a local KKK chapterhouse. (I imagine that I have only got half as far off-topic as you, and would not have done so were it not for all your bloviating.) Why the fuck anyone listens to your dumb arse is beyond me, but after having read your amazingly idiotic outbursts, I just had to comment, since I am well qualified to put your dirt in the dirt.
I imagine you are quite comfortable in the Rose Bowl group whose middle class crap is as bad as Critical Mass but for 60 years have ridden unchallenged in their self-righteous lawlessness. Whereas I identify with Critical Mass (having been familiar with that lot when they started in the early 1990s and I usta trade for Crash!) albeit the one in Alphabet City (now LES), I nevertheless feel that bikes should trump cars but not be used to exhibit equally bad behaviour or self-righteous antics, ESPECIALLY by folk who also own motor vehicles. So stuff yer comment son how I do not know what I am talking about, sonny. And can the crap too; I have dealt with thousands of schmoes not unlike you who piss me off to no end employing bullshit excuses about sarcasm (stuff yer belated responce about unicyclists; not even a semi-decent primary school boy would have let that crap miss the trash bin before the ink dried) when what they are, is at best nothing less than stupid. Perhaps your next endeavour should be Crayon Kitchen, as that is where your sensibility lies. A pen is far too much for you to handle, pal.
Actual conversation with moderate-liberal slightly mixed-race person friend who doesn’t mince words, and doesn’t ride the bus.
Me: So why won’t white people ride the bus?
He: Because people who ride the bus are scum.
(microscopic moment of silence due to classism; realization he’s being sarcastic.)
Me: Hey, I ride the bus.
He: See.
(Political discussion ensues.)
———————————————
Now, he’d never say that to someone who has to ride the bus. I have a car, and use it plenty. So, I’m an auto-ally.
It felt nothing so much like the few times I’ve conversed with racists, who tried to bond with me by sharing, with me, their hatred of black people. (Ironically enough, one of these racist bonding incidents was on the bus.)
———————————————-
Buses are the welfare system of the automotive society. They allow the economy to spread out horizontally, and still have people get to work.
Bikes won’t fit into this day-to-day, until there are some changes to how the economy is structured.
The bottom line is that it seems that most of you have got a lot of HATE going on.
Haters will hate, Riders will ride.
That’s right Browne.. Kumbaya, baby… Kum ba freekin’ ya!
Here is a song to play while you read this:
I think, and so it is only what I think, that if you get offended by something, it is because you might feel some truth in it in yourself.
When people say bad thinigs about Chicanos I don’t get upset because I know Chicanos have a lot of great stuff that many don’t know, so any bad comments most likely come from a place of naivete on Chicanos, so I must accept and forgive it.
To get upset over a generalization is not worth anyone’s time. Unfortunately in cyberlandia peeps many times get feelings over an oversimplification or generalization.
In other words get over it.
ooops I guess my song didn’t stick here is it again
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1erX_b9WUOg
Browne
I have to wonder if you even know what the word “nigger” means. Yes it was used as a disparaging remark about blacks, and still is. But that is not what the word originally meant. Do you care? probably not. Because anything that will further the “Ise been oppressed” ideaology that everyone needs to feel sorry for “people of color” and give them a handout.
Nigger: “a victim of prejudice; a person who is economically, politically, or socially disenfranchised.”
Oddly enough, I am Irish by descent. Did you know that the Irish were enslaved for over 600 years? Do you hear the Irish people talking about how they want reparations and want to be heard? Did you know that in the early years of this country following the Civil War it was more difficult for Irish people to get a job than ANY other minority? No, of course not. Because once again this doesn’t help push your “poor pitty me” arguements.
I could care less what color you are, your social background, or if you drive a car, ride a bike, or take the bus. What I care about is if you are contributing to society as a whole. Maybe the “persons of color” should stop worrying about what happened to their ancestors and start worrying about what is happening to them.
I didn’t grow up in a particularly nice part of town. Was it a slum? No not when I was growing up. That area has become one as more hispanics, latinos, or w/e they want to classify themselves as, move in. Which I can’t understand. It’s not that the people are dirty or messy. In fact I often see the wives stay at home and clean constantly, making for an immaculately CLEAN house. Unfortunately, along with the good come the riff-raff. The ones that feel the need to spray their names all over the walls, piss in public parks, and generally make for a ramshackle looking area.
You will find this in ANY culture made up of ANY color. I lived in Ohio for a time, in a town that was actually 99.5% white. And that area had nice parts of town, and bad parts of town. And some good people lived in the bad parts, and some bad people lived in the good parts. What it comes down to is a person’s view of self worth and their ability to make themselves rise above the culture they grew up in. If that means poor kids making an effort to get to school and get that diploma and go on to college, or some rich white kid that needs to learn that life will not be handed to them on a platter just because of who mommy and daddy are.
You will find oppression in this country and in the world as long as you continue to look and promote the idea is out there. Maybe think outside the box and say that you will not allow yourself to be trampled. There are alot of very very successful “persons of color” out there and they got their by their own volition.
P.S. For whoever said you can’t get a good job without a car, you just have to look harder. I used to work at a successful dining place as a manager making close to 55k a year, which was more than enough for me at the time. And I rode my bike everyday. 25 miles one way.
Psyclo,
So are you saying that oppression only exists because people have a negative outlook?
So what you’re saying is that we have to turn our frowns, upside down.
The Iraq War isn’t a war, but a really cool party with guns.
Also I think you guys really need to stop trying to paint me into a corner. There are oppressed white people too, but currently I’m just talking about oppressed people of color, I am allowed to do that right?
I think you must a denizen of Imagination Land….
http://www.southparkstudios.com/
See episode 11
I’m not doing this “it’s only about class” thing, because it makes people uncomfortable. I don’t care about people’s comfort levels. The left needs to get over it’s fear of race, because it’s obvious an issue that’s not going away. People bring up what I am everyday, who am I to deny them a show if they are going to stereotype me.
If people never brought up my race again, then I probably wouldn’t bring it up either, but people find it fascinating. I wish I were an actress I would get lots of call backs.
But yeah I totally get that white people are oppressed too AND I get that oppression has nothing to do with being white or having a penis, but having lots of money. The thing is people with lots of money understand that the people fighting for crumbs are pretty easily swayed by things like race, gender, sexual orientation…see how much people bring it up.
Yeah I’m black, but you know that’s a political statement, I’m not going to bring up a laundry list or even detail what makes me black. I hate labels, but I will use them to make a point.
Politically I’m black, culturally doesn’t matter and I know I don’t care. Not saying people who do care are dumb, I’m just sort of beyond that.
Anyways this is all besides the point.
I’m debating a point and other people are fighting, because they feel I personally offended them, which is seriously not my problem, I just like discourse.
I’m not five. If an opinion other than yours hurts your feelings there are things for that: porn, pop music, and bad movies.
I’ll tell you about oppressed white people in America, they live in rural sections in the middle of the country, they live in the inland empire, they live all over the place trying to find jobs, trying to eek out a living in a world that is quickly changing. They don’t live in Silver Lake in really cool houses with bikes and studio jobs…the fact that bike people are trying to compare themselves to oppressed anybodies, white, black, latino, asian…it’s just insulting.
There are other threads here bike kulture people, why don’t you prove me wrong, by commenting on them.
Browne
PS are you also trying to state when people use the n-word they are usually not referring to black people…what are you friends with Patti Smith, I have an awesome picture of me and Patti Smith from New Years day 2008 when I was in NY at St Mark’s Church.
‘Oddly enough, I am Irish by descent. Did you know that the Irish were enslaved for over 600 years? Do you hear the Irish people talking about how they want reparations and want to be heard? Did you know that in the early years of this country following the Civil War it was more difficult for Irish people to get a job than ANY other minority? No, of course not. Because once again this doesn’t help push your “poor pitty me” arguements.’
Psychlo, you are dead damn wrong not to mention in dire need of some rudimentary spelling lessons. (Perhaps the irish are as thick as planks?) While I have spent a few years in Ohio (last time was in Toledo right after the race riots in 2005; surely you heard of those?) and know it relatively well from having also been there for a while in the 1970s and again in the 1980s, I suggest you head down to Battery Park City the next time you are in NYC. There is a large monument there overlooking the Hudson (behind the hotel on the Westside Highway, adjacent to the Winter Garden) that tells quite a bit about the irish dilemma. Moreover, I have quite a bit of scotsman and irish in me, and lemme tell you that you must live in a bubble if you think the irish do not bleat incessantly about things; I imagine that they did no less whinging whilst building railroads across the western deserts alongside blacks and chinese in the 19th Century. Well, at least they do in Brooklyn, where they and the italians are like the english and the french: a healthy animosity toward each other. The collective irish resentment is what fuels the Brooklyn Democratic Machine. Don’t know it? I suggest you stop kvetching and look into it.
I like to hear that you chose the bike way rather than motoring to work even though it appears you could afford the motor vehicle. However, your advice that imagining away the oppression is ludicrous. Whether lynching blacks in America for imaginary crimes or macheting off the arms of whites in Zimbabwe while stealing their land (if you do not regularly read The Economist, The Sunday Times, Washington Post, Financial Times or New York Times, I am sure you can find ample evidence of all this within you on-line bubble), oppression exists despite some folk choosing to stick their fat fucking heads in the figurative sand. Those who opt for sand are free to “look” the other way when some drunken scotsman elects to oppress them with size 15 motorcycle boots.
Bustard,
I’m still laughing at the imagining away oppression line…lol…that is funny. That deserves a U-Tube parody. We need to make a video of you beating me and we could turn it into some odd kind of porn thing.
You can be Thomas Jefferson, I’ll be Sally Hemmings.
This thread is amusing as fuck.
And while we are on this light note lets give Alienation a hand, I like the little skit post you did.
I’m going to poor my very wealthy ass a gin and tonic, I’m wealthy now I’m taking up the positive thinking mantra of psyclo. I’m going to start a nonprofit called, “you’re not hungry, you’re just anorexic” the poor man’s guide to success on skidrow.
Browne
A word of advice for Ubraj and Psychlo: Will Campbell is passionate about his conveyance yet he is deft in his argument as well as the fashion he argues it. Perhaps you should do like what you tell Browne and other blacks: calm down and understand that your lot in life ain’t so bad. After all, we who walk and take public transit are tired of hearing about your problems.
A 50-mile bicycle commute may be heroic, but it’s not normal. Your experience is an exception that proves my assertion.
The vast majority people would consider a job 25-miles away as too far for a bicycle, and many would say it’s too far for a bus commute (without an express bus or train).
I live in near downtown (Los Angeles) and I just came upon this hipster duo. The guy wearing hipster clothes with a messenger bag, the girl wearing short 80′s shorts and an ironic t-shirt. Neither of them wearing helmets. They were in the right hand lane on Sunset totally blocking the right hand traffic lane because they were not going with the traffic. They did not move over to the right side of the road as to let the long line of cars behind them pass. They were riding in between cars and around the cars at the stop lights. WTF? I honked at them to let them know they should get over to the right. Of course, they flipped me off and laughed at me as most hipsters do not know how to act in public. Here’s the bottom line…many of these Hipster Bike Kulture kids ride arrogantly on the road. It’s one thing to be confident when on your bike (one should be) but another to be sanctimonious about your right ‘be’ traffic. When they’re not wearing helmets and riding as they do it tells me they don’t care about theirs or anyone’s welfare on the road. I’m telling you, many of them are begging to get hit by a car and many of them do.
I’ve done those Bike Kulture rides. It’s a bunch of kids who are drunk, stoned or both getting on their bikes with their hip bike bags full of beer and halting traffic because they can. Hypocrites. I’ve been to the Bike Kitchen several times have and always felt it kind of elitist and just not very friendly. So I’ve tried to let the Bike Kulture into my consciousness, but it wasn’t a good fit. Thank God.
It’s a shame that most people tend to judge their opinions of a community upon the actions of a few.
Love it or leave it.
That’s because there are a lot of arrogant self righteous jerkoff hipsters riding their bikes as if they are mother teresa for being “one less car”. Hey bike riders, do us the favor and buck the hipster asshat trend, be a nice guy on and off the road and tone down the self promotion and folks will stop getting annoyed by you. When you buck the negative trend of those associated with you, it liberates you in an unexplainable way, trust my words as a choloish looking chicano man who smiles at people and says thank you every day.
And Im sorry but that kum-ba-freekin-ya crap is the most jerkoff annoying whiteboy thing you can say. did you have your hand in that devil worship/ ozzy/punk rock brah! signal while you typed it?
BTW, I know several REALLY cool bike people who inspire the shit out of me.
Whatever, racist.
I’m not “White”. I’m a mutt.
Kumbaya.
I have riden with the Midnight Ridazz about once a month, for about 1.5 years now. I have seen it change in that short time. I have seen their veteranos and the new hipster types that give the veteranos and other regular riders / bike commuters a bad rep.
The hipsters will fall off. They are trendy and for now biking is trendy and fashionable.
The regular riders / commuters share the road and are the good riders that do care about the environment but aren’t shoving it down your throat nor are they holding up traffic as they cruise their fixed gear, brake-less latest fashion accessory.
I hope we recognize there is a distinction between the real riders who ride nice and those who are just being jerks because they think it cool or ‘ironic.’
As for biking being a culture? Well seeing how this has generated such heated responses, it just might be and thus like all cultures in this society you will have to deal with negative stereotypes based on small truths of minorities within your culture.
I appreciate your thoughts Pachuco 3000.
And sorry for my negative outbursts. I just reacted to other’s alienating comments. I wish we all could see how we all have so much in common. Eastside!
Get a life Joe. I never called you white, i said that was an annoying whiteboy thing to do.
Youre a fucken leva whtever your skin tone is brah
ok
Well, despite the insistence that there “is no bike culture,” Bike Oven is having an exhibit called “Photographing L.A. Bike Culture.” Hmmm…
Here’s an example of cyclic douchebaggery:
http://tinyurl.com/3g56qg
Wanna know something else? I have been beaten by Monterey Park police while handcuffed and quiet (I hate those over aggressive racist pieces of shit) and I still think that douchebag got what he deserved (not the actual ramming, but the arrest yes) from the ridazz. This “we cant do no wrong because we are saving the world by riding a bike” overcompensatory victimized bullshit combined with the self righteous judgemental assholery is what people get sick of.
And I’m all for bicycle and humble bike culture promotion, hell, I’m event facilitating a bike ride myself and appreciate “one less car”. Which is why people like me who genuinely support bike proliferation and facilitation get so frustrated with this bad representation of an otherwise great thing to do. But honestly, this has a lot more to do with emotionally warped people than bikes or bike culture.
LOL. You people are hilarious.
Yah, I said “you people”.
NEWAYZ. One of the coolest things I’ve noticed in “bike kulture” lately is hipster girls smoking cigarettes WHILE RIDING. Oh man that just blows my bone.
Honestly, I have no big beef with smoking cigs, or skinny hipster girls (though I prefer a big ass on a bike seat ala Fellini’s Amarcord), or fixed gear bicycles (I wouldn’t want one, but I admit they look kinda cool in their minimalism), but seriously, how do you smoke a cigarette while doing aerobic activity? Bone = Blown.
i brought it back to life…
dr frankenstein
“i brought it back to life…”
Yeah, watch where you link! I didn’t notice this thread had been dead for a while until AFTER I posted.
c’mon let’s go for a hundred!
almost…
Please, let’s not reopen this hornet’s nest.
WOW….lol
soledadenmasa,
you’re not a masochist (or sadist depending on which side you were on). this thread doesn’t make you a little happy inside. i think this was one of the best threads EVER!!! people got all base and personal, it was like jr high without the braces or homework.
browne
99
Browne,
I see your point. I just couldn’t stand how childish some posts were and stopped reading the comments at around the twentieth. I can’t stand how some people act online.
100!
I just stumbled into this thread and boy is it loaded. I think everyone needs to take a few deep breaths. Yes there are ass hat cyclists who don’t give a fuck about other people, there is a handful of such types in any gathering of people. However community cycling rides also help foster, well a community, and developing friendships with other cyclists creates a reinforcement to persevere and keep riding even if drivers run us off the road, throw objects at us or open their door into us. Feeling apart of a community inspired me to ride more and get involved in things like encouraging bike commuting at work.
I don’t think anyone in the cycling community is trying to say oppression on the road is somehow like racial oppression, it’s a different issue, but oppression on the road is very real. I ride everywhere, sometimes for a destination, sometimes because I just want to ride. I sold my car a while ago after it went without use for a long time and I realized for me it was no longer necessary. I ride by the book, proper to the right side of the lane position except when hazards are present, I hand signal lane changes, I use lights, lots of them, yet I am still harassed often enough that it’s not a fluke occurrence. The most frightening time was riding in West Hollywood a car pulled up next to me, slowed down and a rear passenger grabbed my bag and shook me while I was riding and smashed egg into my bag. I was doing nothing but riding along minding my own business on the way to my girlfriends house, and thankfully I held my own and did not fall over in the middle of traffic.
So while yes there are far worse forms of oppression and harassment that have been used and still exist against people of color, oppression on the road is not some make believe that cyclists have devised to get indignant about. I drove for quite a while and never encountered so many people who routinely cut me off, honk at me, yell at me, throw things at me, as when I am just riding my bike in a law abiding fashion down the road. Luckily I live in an area that is pretty chill for cyclists, Santa Monica, but as soon as I roll into every other part of L.A., I am immediately made to feel not welcome on the road. The other day I was riding down a long two lane stretch of road with almost no traffic at all to the right of a lane with no shoulder next to a small cliff drop, and a motorist comes up right behind me, lays a loud honk as though I should move for him (off the cliff I’m guessing was what they would prefer) then swerves around close enough to buzz me with the displacement of air, and speeds off, when he had all the room in the world to get over.
For the most part cyclists have just dealt with these kind of issues on the sidelines, just take it, it’s an expected part of riding. I found an old book on 70’s cycling touring, and it has a whole section on how to diffuse and deal with unprovoked road rage when touring in America. Now on the opposite extreme of just take it, we do have some people blatantly taking entitlement to the road and rubbing motorists sometimes intentionally it seems. I try to promote taking the middle or reasonable path of being assertive without being arrogant because too meek turns you into a push over, and being overly assertive to the point of it stepping out of being legally reasonable, just pisses people off.
I’m not trying to excuse bad behavior by cyclists, I make a point of highlighting dumb cycling things I see as I did on my blog this morning. I encounter unpleasant and rude people on the bus too, yes I ride the bus sometimes as well, but I don’t try and lump all bus riders into some category or stereotype.
I just found this thread, so I’ll chime in.
I’m not sure where this notion that cyclists and bus riders are in opposition comes from. Is it because once in a while a bus has to pass a bike riding in the right lane? Or is it because a bus might get corked by riders during a big group ride? These things happen inadvertently but I don’t think cyclists are out there picking fights with huge vehicles that most of them also ride. Most cyclists I know who rides for transport in L.A. also use public transit to augment their riding.
I think the two modes complement each other. The bike allows you to get to bus stops and to your destination faster. The bus extends the range of bikes and allows you to ride less if you’re really tired from a long day at work or if your body isn’t up to it.
Usually I do half my commute on bike and half on bus. I ride on small streets to major bus lines . This allows me to go wherever I want quickly without having to transfer lines. It’s faster than taking a car during rush hour, and I can ride as much or as little as I want.
omg, some of you posters!! i can’t believe there’s really people in this world still carrying on with the message that the system be down on the minorities.get over that nonsense!! that’s the reason i don’t watch oprah..to much of this ‘help my peeps’ krapola.as if they’re still being enslaved..good gawd!!!
while i thought many posts here were being real and others ridiculous,it’s the ‘woe is the minority’ posts that really suck frost!!
I can’t believe there are people in the world understand these concepts:
1. Alt transit is not embraced by the US gov’t and needs alot more support.
2. Homophobia is real.
3. Sexism exist.
But at the same time these seemingly sane invidiuals think racism is this imaginary thing.
Hey this country killed lots of Native Americans, enslaved black people, then did the Jim Crow thing, interned Japanese Americans, put limits on the amount of Chinese people who could come here, and get freaked out currently when anyone speaks Spanish, so it’s not like this is totally out of line or like there isn’t some dividing line between the races in this country. Should we visit the topic of immigration, the bracero program, the zoot suit riots and this is just in California. California the place that pretends to be liberal though if you look at the schools and the atttitudes is just a backwoods hick town with better looking people and tans.
Why is it that these same vegan, bike riding, Obama voting fucks think that racism is just the figment of someone’s imagination. What the fuck? What is the fucking deal with that kind of fucked up thought pattern and why do you annoying people keep coming back to this post.
You need to stop being such chicken shits and deal with the very real issue of race in this country and don’t use the fucking Obama is president excuse to not do so. Margaret Thatcher was prime minister of the UK for quite sometime and that didn’t make sexism go away in the UK.
Browne
There are 2 reasons these spoiled pricks talk down racism so much, they are:
Personal guilt for coming from the side of privelege and not wanting to admit that others live harder and have genuine issues that you dont, I call it martyrdom penis envy. Lots of chicano pride men do the same thing to women, which was horrible to encounter when Hillary was running for president. Somehow this jealousy for another’s oppression morphs into animosity towards the oppressed and their plight, and a disregard for another’s struggles. Instead of realizing “hey, Im in a position of power so Ill use it to fix things” these types tend to create some kind of oppression/cause they champion that directly affects them and diregard all others (see neocons right now, huero zapatistas who skip helping out eastlos and jump right in to guatamalan bag country, and the homeowner no tax community).
Secondly (and I know Ill catch flack) is the fact of whiny minorities/etc. who call anything racist at the drop of a hat. As a chicano man who actually works for the betterment of my community and a more level playing field, there is nothing more devastating to the equality movment than nonwhites who claim everything is racist. Of course white America latches on to these types and presents them as the epitome of ethnic empowerment in order to undermine the genuine causes (causes whose leaders are either killed imprisoned or harassed), but on the flip side this kind of overvictimization has become too prevalent in our barrios and communities and the idiotic bullhorns of this nonsense are what America sees the equality movement embodying. When i work with kids I constantly have to check them about saying “thats racist” nonstop or being racist towards whites fo no reason. Right now Rush Limbaugh is making conservatives look really bad, these overvictimization bullhorns are like hundreds of limbaughs for the equality movement, except they dont galvanize their constituency like the neocons.
These people give whites an excuse to roll their eyes at genuine inequality, although if that wasnt around they’d find another reason to dismiss our plight. Because of this people genuinely fighting for equality have a much harder battle to endure.
Im not saying this is only why folks act the way they do on both sides, in social terms nothing is black or white. But both of these issues are major factors in why discussions like this play out the way they do, and why people act the way they do regarding racism. The concept of racial inequality is f’d up on both sides, which is obviously done with a purpose because education on race and american history and culture is so crappy and non critical thinking in our education system.
Browne is one of the few people I know who can throw out the inequality bomb constantly while not being a whiny minority (I hate to use that term, but you know what I mean), despite peoples’ diligence in trying to paint her that way. She dont sugar coat it, and people try to steroetype her and others like her in this stereotypical Al Sharpton BS because they otherwise dont have a valid position in a debate with her.
White people in denial of the fact that the system is still white controlled are so stupid they deserve to be accused of racism at every turn.
I would like to know what bike harassers are thinking when they holler shit at bicyclists.
Since I’m in a carFREE household and 90% of the “cyclist” commenters on this thread have cars (which I think bothers me more than anything else, if it was real movement with some real dedication I might be a bit more tolerant of certain people and their asshole vibe) in their household or own a car, that question of car harrassers should probably be presented on a Midnight Ridazz Thread, since they are more likely to be friends with people with cars (or have cars themselves) than people on this blog.
I think this blog has a higher percentage of people that are carFRee and are in carFREE households than on “alt transit blogs”.
That’s pretty ironic.
Yeah I’m being a butt, but you know I’m just saying…
Hey if we’re going to all pull out the self-righteous card I got alot of people beat on being dedicated and keeping it real and wasting way too much time on a lifestyle that in general does nothing.
Ride your bike to work everyone and remember even driving your car a little bit is murdering the planet a little bit so you probably shouldn’t be so self-righteous about your bicycle if your wife has a car.
Hey do what you can, but don’t smack people in the face with your bullshit if you’re the kind of person that thinks chicken and fish aren’t meat and your s/o is driving a car doesn’t really count, because it so does and chicken and fish are meat.
Browne
“Did you just try to compare bike kulture with being an ethnic minority and to having a vagina?”
no but the idiot who wrote this article did and the point of the posting was to show the irony of it all. guess it went over your head. haha
Why is it that those who too often resort to name-calling while offering no argument (and always with grammar and spelling that is nothing short of reprehensible) are are always anonymous? If they believed in what they stated, one might imagine they would state a name/link. Then again, I suppose that they are cowards in life and blogs are the only way they can imagine having a backbone.
Randall, I agree. I’m a commuter rider who has been on a number of group rides but has grown disillusioned with the culture, which puts a premium on youth, hipness, fixies, blocking intersections, and so on. I see kids on bikes but not much reforma.
I’m surprised how long this bike culture has persisted. Back in the early days of Critical Mass, there was a lot of attitude, but it seemed less hostile… at least at “mass”. The messenger folks were pretty elitist though.
Now, if one is a messgenger, and being elistist, that’s kind of OK to me. They’re professionals. It’s like some cabbies or truckers who act they they own the road — they kind of do, because they work on it. Someone else, who is a recreational rider or commuter, being elitist or rude, is lame.