East Side Story, Vol 9
The last few years have been frustrating for those of us on the Eastside. I’ve been on many a Los Angeles blog explaining, defending and educating folks on why certain parts of the city shouldn’t be called the Eastside. Despite testimonials, historical references and other persuasive truths, there are many who choose to keep using the term Eastside inappropriately. Putting aside the geographical debate, it’s important for many to realize the cultural connection many Mexicans and Chicanos have to the term Eastside.
For those of us who have grown up in these neighborhoods, “Eastside” is a more than just a place, it’s been a cultural signifier. It represents the communities and the cultures of folks who have lived in Boyle Heights, Lincoln Heights, City Terrace and the great Easterly Beyond. The term Eastside has been used to describe many sorts of cultural innovations emanating from the people east of the river. One of my favorites is a series of albums from the 70s called East Side Story.
From the backside of the album cover:
The EAST SIDE STORY volumes are dedicated to the Low Riders and to those who appreciate the “soul type” oldies.
Never before has there been a collection of oldies that was created especially for the Low Rider.
This creation is the culmination of years of exposure and dedication to the “soul type” oldies, and the results speak for themselves.
The EAST SIDE STORY volumes are destined to be collectors items that will live on forever, because the very nature of the songs goes to the essence of the way of life of the Low Rider.
The immediate success of the EAST SIDE STORY volumes bears this out only too well.
As far as I know, there were twelve volumes released, with classic favorites like:
Smile Now Cry Later-Sunny
Yes I’m Ready-Barbara Mason
Hypnotized-Linda Jones
Baby I’m For Real-The Originals
Hey There Lonely Girl-Eddie Holman
Natural High-Bloodstone
Me & You-Brenton Wood
[Brenton Wood, an unofficial Chicano hero, was once described by a friend of a friend as “The Mozart of cholo slow jams.”]
These “soul oldies” were popularized by radio personalities like Art Laboe and Huggy Boy and can probably still be heard emanating from lowriders in East LA to Norwalk to Rialto. The albums are sadly out of print but have been re-released in a CD boxset (warning, the tracks on the CDs are not exactly the same as the original releases.)
For more info on this popular Eastside cultural export, check out Land of a Thousand Dances: Chicano Rock n’ Roll from Southern California by David Reyes and Tom Waldman and The Old Barrio Guide to Lowrider Music by Ruben Molina.
Rhino Records also has an excellent collection of Chicano oldies called Brown Eyed Soul, check it out, ese!
Morning bonus, some tunes to listen to while you’re reading:
It’s odd how certain people can just steal your identity, because they decide they want it and then get irritated with you because you call them on it.
As a joke we should rename Culver City, Larchmont, Hancock Park, and Mar Vista South Central, (since that’s not hip and still viewed as the scary ghetto) then when people get irritated we can say, “Well who are you to decide what is South Central and what is not…”
That would really piss people off.
Pissing people off is fun.
Browne
And besides everybody knows what Eastside meant before the hipsters decided their parents were dorks and didn’t want to be westsiders anymore.
How is that the LA Chicano communities problem that you have parent issues? It’s not. People who call westside neighborhoods the eastside knowing damn well that eastside meant Mexican-American should go some more tattoos if they want to seem more street.
Hell they can get hourly jobs if they want to keep it real.
People want to be urban, but not too urban. I think it’s funny that the same people who are so “this is the eastside” would never set foot in the real eastside after dark unless it was to get in the car and go to an art event and then get in their car and go home.
I wash my clothes at the Laundry Mat on 1st and Boyle and interesting I never see anyone from Sci-Arc washing their clothes down there.
And that’s pretty much the only Laundry Mat down there, that’s near the arts district and downtown and the beginning of the real eastside.
It’s odd how I know people who live in the Brewery who have never even gone grocery shopping in Lincoln Heights, but people in the Brewery oddly won’t say they live on the eastside, they say they live in downtown…how the heck does that work…
Browne
One more thing people in the arts district claim they can’t use public transit because there is no bus.
The Montebello 40, the MTA 30, 31…
Ok…I got to do my daily writing exercises.
Browne
Thanks for the comments Browne! I look forward to reading your posts every morning.
I think the sad part is, there are tons of folks who had no idea that the Eastside meant more than a geographic area. It shows there is a lack of recognition for the brown communities in Los Angeles, it becomes a sort of historic and linguistic gentrification. Our history is not recognized or incorporated into the larger idea of “Los Angeles” and continues to be ignored and dismissed. Of course there are the token nods when discussing Mexican food or Mariachis or something but I wonder if certain people realize “soul oldies” are part of the soundtrack of this city, along with Randy Newman. 🙂
I like soul oldies. I remember when they were new.
wo0t! Boyle Heights!
The Great Easterly Beyond is a mystical land.
Actually, as a kid growing up in Azusa, whenever I heard the term “the Valley,” I thought it meant the SGV. I was so bitterly disappointed when I realized the truth.
But your point is very true.
Growing up in a homogeneous community like ELA has it’s good
and bad points. But there’s something special about
living in a place where everybody has the same cultural fabric,
where the food, the music, the looks, the lingo are all common
elements with everyone you meet and anywhere you go. You had the feeling
you were a part of something unique & personal. If you were from the Eastside,
it was your identity, and it was real. When we went off into the rest of the world,
we would always carry our cultural ties to ELA in our pockets. Today, I sense
that people from outside ELA will inevitably find ways to invade
and exploit the area and see only potential real estate value without fully appreciating or caring about the cultural & historical significance that is so a part of us and of this city. The Romans and other invaders throughout history would build their new cities and impose their own culture, literally, on top of the old conquered ones, effectively smothering them out.
I see it coming and I’ve made it my mission to not let our ourselves get smothered
out. I’ll use my art & whatever tools I may have to help keep the voice of ELA alive. They may eventually take our streets, our homes, or even our name (Eastside), but never our spirit. Thanks to all on this site who keep the Eastside voices alive!
Growing up in a homogeneous community like ELA, and then moving away for college made me realize how little I knew about other people, cultures, food. It made me realize that diversity was a concept lost to me and others from my part of town. Sure, my community was a tight-knit family and a security blanket of sorts, but man did i miss out on a lot of stuff.While my parents have are long gone from our hometown, I would probably never go back. NO, i don’t think it’s “ghetto”, but my idea of community has changed drastically.
People might be surprised at how conservative the views of older generations in ELA can be. My dad is a real Mexican Archie Bunker. One of the negative aspects of growing up there is the “Cocoon” culture of the community. It tends to get isolationist and in worst cases, hold you back so you tend to be unprepared for the reality of the rest of the world. Going off to college, out of ELA for the first time, I saw how easy it was to want to wrap yourself in a cultural pride (another cocoon) (ie. join Mecha) to take the edge off of feelings of fear and personal insecurity. It took me years to realize that my father had been wrong about a lot of things, for example, not all Gringos have horns & tails.
Don’t all culture grow up in a bubble? I think you should have a myriad of experiences, but I think sometimes there is this bad view of “ethnic” bubbles.
I remember when I was in college I hung out with a bunch of people, I was the multyculty queen. I didn’t want to be pigeonholed into hanging out with one group, but you know I remember a response I had to one of my friends who had this question.
Why do all of the black girls sit at that table, all of the latina’s sit at that table, and all of the asian girls sit at that table (went to an all women’s college) and my response was, why do all of the white girls all sit at the same 20 tables.
And yes minorities need to branch, but I think white people need to branch out also.
And not just to live in a cool building, but never shop in the neighborhood, hang out with the people in the neighborhood, and then decide when they like it to just move everyone out and replace it with things that they like.
Yes while white people aren’t the majority any more in LA, in California they are still the biggest single group in this state and by far the biggest single group in four year colleges and in white collar professions needing degrees.
I don’t understand why with people of color for us to grow and become open minded we must stop living around people who look like us.
No disrespect to anyone I totally know what you mean, but white people seem to have no problem being progressive and living in majority white neighborhoods.
San Francisco. Manhattan. Portland. Humboldt County California.
All very progressive. All very educated. All very white. And they are all completely ok with that.
Up until 2000 Los Angeles white people were the most likely to be isolated from all of ethnic groups (and that took some special skill right there) and I’m thinking it was by choice, the only reason that it’s not the case now is because there are a large population of Latinos, so they can’t now.
http://www.usc.edu/schools/sppd/research/census2000/race_census/racecontours/ethington/isolation_index.pdf
Not saying people of color shouldn’t get out and stretch their legs, but I think we stretch our legs an awful lot in comparison to non people of color.
Browne
Browne, I agree with you, I feel like that too. But sometimes, It’s almost like if we don’t go to them, they’ll never come to us. You know?
I took a class a while ago on Chican@ music. We read the Land of a Thousand Dances, among other things. It was quite amazing to learn about the role Chican@s had in R&B and rock n’ roll that’s never really talked about. I see and Eastside music post in the future. It’s not just Los Lobos…
My experience growing up bewtween Echo Park and SGV was that we tended to choose friends by musical preferences and not necessarily ethnicity. I’ve always felt like being Chicana was “normal” so to create my identity I chose a particular music scene to belong to. For me, it was punk/hardcore but I know others were into metal, disco, ska etc. So in that sense, I didn’t feel like I lived in a homogeneous culture.
I had an African American roommate from Camden, New Jersey in college. She was shocked when I appropriated Tower of Power and War and Earth Wind & Fire songs as Chicano oldies. She saw them strictly as R&B. Then she moved to L.A. to go to USC Law School and stayed with my family in Boyle Heights while looking for an apartment. Now she’d admit that those oldies belong to everyone.
As for the “mystical land” comment, we used to say in college that Aztlan was a state of mind; East L.A. is for real.
Out of curiosity, do you differentiate between the phrases “Eastside” and “East L.A.?” I always kind of got the impression than historically the areas of Boyle Heights, Lincoln Heights, etc. were referred to as “East L.A.,” while “Eastside” was a more recently coined term. Is that incorrect? Has “Eastside” been in wide use for a long time to describe the same communities as “East L.A.?”
The reason I ask is that, if “Eastside” has an existing and historically specific meaning, I can totally support being indignant over its appropriation. However, if it doesn’t and the issue is really just about getting worked up over who gets to lay claim to the adjective “East,” I can’t really get behind that.
Eastside neighborhoods have historically been used to describe Lincoln Heights, El Sereno, Boyle Heights and parts of City Terrace.
East Los Angeles is the unincorporated areas east of Boyle Heights and extends to the borders of Alhambra, Monteery Park and Montebello.
The terms have been used interchangeably though.
Eastside as it relates to a culture has been used as far back as the early 1900s to describe life in Boyle Heights and Lincoln Heights. I know for certain (based on my father who grew up in Boyle Heights and was a musician) that the “Eastside sound” started to be used by Mexican Americans in the the late 1950s.
My grandmother who also grew up in Los Angeles (moved here in the early 1920s) would commonly refer to areas east of the river as “The Eastside.”
Here are two other things to make things confusing:
Prior to 1910 (or around there) Lincoln Heights was officially
known as “East Los Angeles.”
According to my grandmother, Echo Park (where she lived her whole life) was sometimes referred to as “The Westside.”
Among many Chicanos, Eastside has a very distinct cultural reference and that’s why people like myself are angry over it’s appropriation. It further reinforces our belief that our communities and history have been ignored by those on the other side of the city. If we had gotten more respect, people wouldn’t have thought it okay to take the term “Eastside.”
Beautifully said, Chimatli. To put in my two pesos,
5000: I’d like to address the part of your statement “…who gets to lay claim to the adjective “East”, that the term “East” is not in dispute here, that’s a directional term with wide applications. We are referring specifically to the NOUN Eastside or East L.A., describing a city region pertaining to a location, in this case east of the river. The inference that the term Eastside is even “up for grabs” at this point in time is nothing less than insulting and it reflects an apparent self-centered disinterest and ignorance of those of us with cultural ties to the area and to Los Angeles city history as a whole.
I must add that I truly appreciate/respect your asking for more information on the subject to form your opinion. That’s refreshing.
Eastside is very old school LA. The term was more recently discovered by westsiders and valleyites who wanted to seem more gritty…
Browne
>>The term was more recently discovered by westsiders and valleyites who wanted to seem more gritty…
You’re making a lot of assumptions there, Browne. I think there are plenty of people who started calling places like Silver Lake and Echo Park the “east side” because, frankly, it’s on the east side of the city of Los Angeles (though obviously not the metro area). Not that they should call it that, or that they shouldn’t be aware that there are existing connotations to the name, but blanket statements about large groups of people seems like exactly the sort of thing you complain about all the time.
5000,
I’m being assumptive, well isn’t that the pot calling the kettle black.
This is you,”“Eastside†has an existing and historically specific meaning, I can totally support being indignant over its appropriation. However, if it doesn’t…”
If that wasn’t assumptive, I don’t know what the hell is. Don’t try to throw it back on me when you were being a little bit of some bs first. I mean if you don’t agree with me fine, but don’t try to get all, “well you’re being assumptive” crap.
Browne
5000,
Silver Lake and Echo park are in the north part of Los Angeles. I will grant that they are east of Hollywood.
Although I were back in NYC while the “eastside” phenomenon was burgeoning, I do know loads of folk responsible for advancing it who lived in Silver Lake, Franklin Hills and East Hollywood. many of them have, like me, been in the small press publishing scene for a couplea decades. However, they found it cool to emulate the hipsters who were appropriating the term for the verry reason this thread was started. I found it pretenstious, as it implied they were living on the edge, or knew something others might have only heard about.
It is not a new development, this attempt to impress others by one’s residential namesake; it has been a scourge in New York for some time. (If you know anything about LES, the Bowery, Williamsburg and Bed-Stuy, to name a few nabes, you will know what I mean. These places indicated a culture usually in regards race, just like East L.A./Eastside.) It has even been employed in TV sitcoms, which means it is olde hat.
“I had an African American roommate from Camden, New Jersey in college. She was shocked when I appropriated Tower of Power and War and Earth Wind & Fire songs as Chicano oldies.”
Vero how can you “appropriate” the music of another people? Are you taking on the mentality of the people that “appropriated” this land from your ancestors? They are not “Chicano oldies.” I don’t know of any Chicanos who played a creative role in the production of the classic Black soul & r&b recordings erroneously referred to as Chicano or lowrider oldies. It is classic soul/r&b created by Black Americans. Its great you appreciate and love the music, but you cannot claim or “appropriate” what you did not have a hand in creating.
We as black americans are so quick to through away black artist and then reclaim them only when someone else wants them. The Black Rose
heckout http://www.expressyourself.net
I got both..cd and record collection and their not the same! but their both the best oldies collection i got so far! I was doing a oldies show and started off with the record version and the ppl went wild with these oldies..the cds are koo too but the records i think are better. ART LABOE AND HUGGY BOY ARE THE PIONEERS WHEN IT COMES TO OLDIES BECAUSE THEY PLAY ALL THESE JAMS AND MORE..PLUS MY DJ NAME WAS HALF TAKEN FROM HUGGYBOY AND MY ON AIR IDOL IS ART LABOE!
ONE LOVE!
DJ MELLOWBOY
Thanks for joining in the discussion DJ Mellowboy!
October Brown, a lot of these black artists have to know that their Chicano fan base is their lifeline. If you went to a Brenton Wood show today I’d be willing to bet you that 90% of his audience is Latino. Chicanos in the western US have given a lot of these soul ballads and their artists nothing short of a second life. While Chicanos may not have been involved with the production of the music, without them these songs, and most of the artists, would be totally forgotten.
chimatli –
no Prob, doing a Oldies radio station Make you and others appreciate Oldies more
The Chicano community as well as the millions of people in Europe & Asia deserve props for their role in helping to keep the music alive and prolonging the careers of these artist. But calling it Chicano or lowrider music is incorrect. If I see something labeled Chinese or Cuban music I am assuming it was created by those people. Nobody seems to have a problem when other music forms are credited to its creators, say Brazilian music, Cuban music, Portuguese music, etc., But when this music and other forms created by Black Americans (jazz, funk, rap, gospel, blues) is referred to as Black music, the out cry is oh its not Black music its universal. And it is universal because we’re all humans and it speaks of the human experience. But this particular music came out of the human experience of the descendants of African captives forced into slavery. So it is our take on the universal human experienced and should be credited as such. And Black Rose I have never abandoned this music. I was born with this music playing in my ears and have continued to love and support it throughout my life.
Are there truly as many fans of obscure American soul ballads in Europe and Asia as their are in the United States’ Latino community? Again, we’re talking the obscurity of many of these songs. I understand the Temptations’ “My Girl” is a huge hit worldwide. But Bobby Moore and the Rhythm Aces?
Rob Thomas, I was stationed in Germany and did a little traveling to a few other countries and found the people to be very much aware of “obscure” acts like Bobby Moore and the Rhythm Aces, much more than Americans. Shopping in record stores there was like finding a musical Utopia. One could find just about any soul/r&b track ever recorded. Besides that is not the issue. The issue is mislabeling the music. As I stated the Chicano community is to be commended for their great love and support of the music, but that love does not make this Chicano music. And calling it that is misleading. It is music created by Black Americans and so if any ethnic label is to be attached to it then it should Black or African American.
I believe that most Chicano fans of black music are well aware that it’s created by Black Americans and fully appreciate and admire these talented individuals that created it. I speak for myself and everyone I’ve ever met when I say that it’s unfathomable to believe otherwise. When Chicanos call it “their music” I’ve always interpreted that as meaning that they’ve so connected to this Black created music (and with so much love for it) that it has become a major part of Chicano music culture. Much like the White, Caribbean,and South American artists that have also become an integral part of the music that has become a part of the Chicano culture’s musical repertoire. I’d like to believe that this speaks more of the kinship between our two ethnic groups than anything else.
That’s interesting, October. I never knew it. Here in the states, I really only see Chicanos being real consumers of this music anymore. That’s why it always made sense to me that they sort of adopted it as their own. Most black and white people I know under 35 do not listen to old soul ballads. But a lot of Chicanos I know, of all ages, do.
Some years back I got to attend a Gap Band concert at the Greek Theatre, totally comped by lead singer Charlie Wilson.
My uncle was his PO and friend, Wilson had been busted on a drug beef and was a client of my Tio.
We were backstage with Wilson and the Gap Band and it was a gas partying with them, all good people.
When the curtain opened for the performance, the entire audience, and I mean entire, was made up of Chicano’s.
They knew all the words to “Party Train”, I Dropped a Bomb on You”, and all the rest of the repertoire of the Gap Band, they were dancing on their seats and in the aisles, getting down big time.
After the show backstage I asked Wilson about the Chicano fan base he had at the Greek Theatre and he told me that it didn’t matter if they played in LA, Frisco, San Diego, El Paso, Tucson, Chicago, Denver, Houston or even in his home base of Oklahoma, the Gap Bands supporters and fans were almost 100% Chicano and Mexicano. When the Gap Band played in Tijuana or Guadalajara or DF it was always a sellout.
Charlie Wilson and the Gap Band claim they belong to the Chicano and Mexican fans.
They are proud African Americans but I’m wondering why if from day one they are supported by Chicano’s why one couldn’t say they are a Chicano phenom.
Go to a “War” concert anywhere and see who’s supporting them.
Does the color of a performer or group matter? And if a certain culture (Chicano), is the total support and fan base then isn’t that a case for saying the performer or performers are a Chicano cultural based music group?
This conversation has turned quite interesting, with good points being made about the race dynamics of the people making the music and those supporting the music. To further complicate things: if an all Chicano punk band makes punk music for other Chicanos, is that considered Chicano music? I like punk, but don’t think of it as Chicano music. Morrissey is a Chicano favorite (theres many articles having about this apparently odd fascination) and most Brits find him annoying, what does that make his music? I certainly don’t know.
All I can say is that I’m glad Chicano’s are willing to try out music from all kinds of genres, crossing all fronteras!
I understand and can appreciate how special this music is to the Chicano community. Louis Armstrong’s recording of “Stardust” & Coleman Hawkin’s take on “Body & Soul” made these songs a part of the Black American music canon. Although the writers were not Black, the songs were performed in a genre of music created by Black people, jazz. For Bobby Moore’s “Searchin For My Baby” or James Brown’s “Try Me” to become Chicano music, they would have to be performed in a music form created by Chicanos. These original soul/r&b classic recordings cannot be categorized as Chicano music. I am from the deep south and many young Blacks here are very familiar with this music. Black music is constantly changing. Field hollers, spirituals, blues, ragtime, jazz, swing, bop, boogie woogie, r&b, R&R, soul, funk, house, hip hop, gospel, that is why Black music is American music. Many young Black people have been introduced to this music because of hip hop sampling and movies like Dead Presidents. Madvillain’s “Fancy Clown” introduced my 22 yr old nephew to the original song-Z.Z. Hill’s “That ain’t the way you make love”. This has since become one of his all time favorites. Same with UGK’s Intl Player’s Anthem, it gave him Willie Hutch’s original “I Choose You”. That is how they have come to know the music.
In the early days of the Gap Band they had a huge Black following. They had sell-out concerts all along the east coast with majority black audiences. Today they are a popular attraction on the Tom Joiner show and on his annual cruises again majority Black audience. You go to any Black family reunion, wedding, cook-out, etc., and play “Party Train”, “Early In the Morning”, “Oops Upside Your Head”, young and old will hit the floor. And everybody wants to get close to somebody when they hear “Going In Circles”, “No Hiding Place” & “yearning”. War also had a huge Black following in its early years. But the group traveling as war is no longer the same war they recorded all those classic recordings. If Gap band performed a style of music created by Chicanos then it would be Chicano music. It is great they are embraced by this community but what they play is not Chicano music. With the punk thing – they are Chicano guys who love and play punk music and no that doesn’t make it Chicano music. Charlie Pride (Black man) is one of the greatest country singers of all time but that does put country music under the Black music umbrella. I love traditional country music, but my love does not change the fact that it is the musical legacy of the southern whites of English, Irish & Scottish heritage who created it.
I would have to agree with October Brown. Just cause us Chicanos have adopted this music as our own does not mean we can call it just “Chicano Music.” I think it’s important to always recognize the contributions of African-Americans since there is a known history of negating those contributions by popular culture.
We love and support the music but we need to remember where it comes from.
octoberbrown –
Ok now check it out,I understand what you mean but in the Early years you had the Black Movement when everyone wanted to hear one type of music and they made it popular at that time In Michigan and New york where Mowtown Started and now it spread to a wide variety of ppl. the Majority of PPl are Chicano’s And Allot of the African Singers Moved down south due to its a land of where the opportunities. And Chicanos Made Oldies Popular Playing the Oldies and Old School Popular Playing it in their Chevy’s or just cruising it. If you see a African person you’ll see them cruising to RAP!
chimatli –
true I agree and understand where your both comming from but my Point is when you see a James Brown Song Koo! but will you see “I’m Black and Proud? no you won’t and that is because when the black movement was going on It was the Mowtown Sound. in the early 50’s history goes the Zuit Suit Riot was going on and that’s where us Chicanos fall in place and grew and the ww2 started. fowllowing that time Mowtown started Dying And Oldies Generated To East La “boyal Heights” “El Monte” come the late 70’s… soul and R&B And when you say Brenton Wood Ask yourself where He became famous..Answer is “LA” best known for his two 1967 hit singles “The Oogum Boogum Song” and “Gimme Little Sign”. Even though his entire work is considered to be lowrider cruisin’ oldies, and are featured on an uncountable amount of oldies compilations. And Another thing,He is he is popular with a Latino, “specifically Chicano”, audience. I know African Americans Argue about where their music comes from but bottom Line is Music Is Generated And gets heard from the ones who listen to it most. you go to a 2 $short concert you’ll see more Africans then Mexicans! u go to a kid frost concert whom has sang with brenton wood..you’ll find more Mexicans! Trust me I know this for a fact I’ve Djed everywhere for ppl and @ concerts and seen it all so anyone can argue with me and tell me whatever you want so feel free to do so and I’ll Gladly to respond back!
Dj Mellowboy
dj Mellowboy – White people are the majority audience for blues and jazz. So does that mean the music of Duke Ellington, Louis Armstrong, John Coltrane, Charles Mingus, Theolonius Monk is no longer Black music? No matter who the majority audience for classic soul/r&b is today it still does not change the fact that it is Black music. This music has roots in gospel and blues, both genres created by Blacks. It does not matter who listens to it, plays it, supports it. It is now and always will be Black music. Nothing can make it Chicano music, Chinese music, German music, etc.,
chimatli – That is what I am trying to say. We all have a right to listen to or perform any style of music. But to imply that it no longer the music of its creators is absurd! I have heard people justify this land being taken from Native people because “they weren’t doing anything with it” – They were living on it! soul/r&b has been the foundation of another form of Black music – hip hop. Though most of what is played on mainstream radio is garbage, the early years were fantastic! Grandmaster Flash & Furious Five, Kurtis Blow, Brand Nubian, Public Enemy, Slick Rick, Eric B. & Rakim, Run DMC, M.C. Lyte, Wu-Tang, The Pharcyde, Blacksheep, KRS-1, just too many to cover.
I had no idea who Brenton Wood was. Thank god for You Tube.
I think the thing is this that people from the Diaspora and I say that, because I can’t speak for just the African-American experience, but I can speak for the African Diaspora experience since my existence via my father’s side of the family even though it is not American it is owing to the existence of slavery that he got to Central America.
I say that owing to years of not being accepted and people just taking our stuff we built a sort of system where we change up shit every five years. I think black people in general are in regards to culture “Innovators.” We make up something, everyone steals it and instead of getting upset about it (except for a few people who are older or people who are still trying to sell an old record or something else we’ve all moved on from) we just go, “That shit is old anyway lets make up this new thing.”
Make lemons out of lemonades. That’s why I think the oldies in African-American culture just never really stuck, because we were already on to the new thing. Now while it is obviously music created from the black experience and maybe you could call it black music its old black music and black people in general are about the new thing. Now of course this is gross generalization, but if you just look at American black cultural slang changes really fast, if you hear “black slang” on TV or radio, black people in general have stopped using it, that even goes with dance, music, once it hits mainstream the part of black culture that creates that is already doing something else.
Even black neighborhoods. In LA you have really old Chicano neighborhoods, black people in general I don’t think it’s so much about a specific place (black people will leave their neighborhood in a second and not even think about it, hell we’ll change the name of a neighborhood, seriously we don’t care about kind of tradition, South LA, South Central, even nicknames I’ve had friends that have had like five pseudonyms, whatever it takes to escape detection or stop being used to sell rap records…lol…) or type of music. I think it’s about creation. Lets create a new neighborhoods, lets create this new music, lets create this new way of talking, lets do this with our clothes…I think black culture is that way and will continue to be that way because we look the most different (own personal experience, everyone remembers me and I view that as a positive) and we’re very small in numbers. It’s not really worth it for the mainstream to cater to us because they’ll never be quick enough to catch black people…haha….
The beauty of being one of the smallest groups and making everyone stare a little when you walk in the room is that you are always are going to be forced to be a little more creative and open in your thinking.
Black culture isn’t about the end product. I don’t think black people care about the end product. I think black culture is about ideas.
Browne
This is a very interesting and necessary subject but I think we might be stuck on a question of semantics.
There is no question that almost all original popular American (and now world wide), music of the twentieth century to the present is based on African American music. Gospel,Blues,Ragtime,Jazz,Swing,Bee Bop,Rhythm and Blues,Rock and Roll, Funk, Rap,and on and on, all have their roots in the African American experience.
As the great Little Richard (another favorite of the Chicano community),says so eloquently “The Blues had a baby and they called it Rock and Roll”.
Historically, going back to at least the Duke Ellington, Cab Calloway, Count Basie, Jimmie Lunceford bands, the Chicano and especially the young Chicano, always supported and favored African American based music. This probably had it’s genesis with the fact that Mexicans, like Black Americans, suffered the discrimination, prejudice and isolation from the parent “White Cultural Structure” of the USA. And the Mexican American culture whose own musical roots are based on the pain, poverty, discrimination, and almost virtual slavery, identified and “felt” the emotional and evocative music of the Black American experience,the “soul” of this great music.
When legal or de facto segregation occurs then the victims of this develop their own subculture and it’s own distinct music and artistic forms, this is the reason for the development of African American music and also the reason for the embracing of this music by Mexican Americans going way back.
When the practice of banning so called “Race Music” from white popular radio was in full flower, Pat Boone covering all the Little Richard records including his ludicrous version of “Tutti Frutti”, the McGuire Sisters stealing “Shhh Boom”, The Fontane Sisters covering The Chords great “Hearts of Stone” , the Kingsmen ripping off Richard Berry’s “Louie Louie”, and on and on, the Chicano community always preferred and supported the original African American artists.
In Los Angeles in the 40’s 50’s and 60’s Chicanos listened to radio shows like Huggy Boy, Art Laboe, Johnny Otis, and the king of African American radio, “Hunting with Hunter” Hunter Hancock (who weirdly enoung happened to be a white guy), on KGFJ, all featuring African American artists.
Every Chicano house party and dance in LA in those days featured strictly Black performers and records, The Penguins, The Chantels, James Brown, Jackie Wilson, The Coasters, The Olympics, Etta James, Marvin Gaye, The Platters, Martha and the Vandellas to name just a few of the hundreds of almost exclusively African Americans we listened to.
And another Mexican American phenomena, that has developed for various reasons, is the generational loyalty and support that Chicanos give to these Black performers. We still support and attend performances of the great African American talents long long after the White and Black audiences have moved on and forgotten these artists.
Still popular after 50 or 60 years with Chicanos at concerts and in record stores these African American performers seem to have transcended the label of Black or popular Music and become stars of what is known as “Chicano Music”, that embraces a particular style that endures the test of time and appeals to an almost exclusively “Chicano” audience.
Yes these performers are Black but semantics aside they certainly are part of a subculture known as “Chicano Music”
My opinion is that oldies is Chicanos Music, not that it’s created by them, but that’s who appreciates it the most now. When I’m on the 51, 53, the Blue Line making my trips through South Central that’s what the black people call oldies, “Mexican” music or they say Mexicans really like oldies. These are the black people who take the bus, economically disadvantaged and ask me how to use email.
Now I’m not the end all be all and I’m just an observer at best in most things and I never put much stock in personal anecdotes even my own, but oldies does make me think Chicano. Maybe that’s a stereotype in my own head.
I think it is a question of semantics, when Chicanos say “this is our music” I don’t think its in the same way when America is like, “Jazz is American.” It’s not that same kind of thing. I think Chicanos saying its theirs is a way of showing respect for something that they really, really like.
And I have never gotten that impression nor have I gotten that impression from the people who do much of the creation in the black community (the most economically disadvantaged—those are the innovators, middle class black people are the early adopters…lol…) view it as something anyone is trying to “take” in that way.
I’m kind of surprised that anyone even got that impression from anything that anyone has said here, but you know as people often tell me that “you don’t know, you ain’t even from here…” So it could be another case of that.
Sometimes I think old black music was black music, but now we have this new music so that’s not really black anymore…some people find this not holding on to things a problem with black culture, but I think it all depends on your perspective. When I go to African-American neighborhoods in LA I feel so out of it, because I do hold on to old stuff, but they are all listening to new music, talking in a new way, showing me some new odd thing (so much I want to steal my damn self) and it’s like in a way if you’re black and you hold on to tradition too much like jazz or oldies or calling yourself a negro its almost like to other black people you seem like you’re acting not black or maybe kind of white and I don’t know if I’m putting that right, but that’s that’s my gut impression.
Browne
Browne
It is true that Black American culture is constantly changing and evolving into something new. But that does not mean the past accomplishments of a people becomes the property of another. Black people have created a stunning musical legacy that has been embraced around the world. New music does not negate the importance of the old ones. It is literally a recording of our experiences.
I understand what you’re saying Octoberbrown. New should not negate the old, but this seems to be a constant debate within the black community at least in regards to the art arena. I think the important thing to do is archive things and write books on it, at least on topics you care about. At least people will know when they reference things in historical documents or academic papers, because if depending on black people to continue to support old stuff is an artist’s or singer’s plan, that plan will fail.
I think sometimes you look at things and you just don’t fight against what is there. Find out what is working and do that. Young black people being into oldies, not going to happen because historically we just don’t do that, but how can you keep it alive without going against the cultural norm? That’s what you have to figure out instead of stopping the wave go with it and use that power to do what you want.
Chicanos are keeping oldies alive in going to concerts and buying cds, so that’s taken care of.
What else needs to be taken care of? That someone is not already doing.
Possibly the NAACP or the African-American History museums could start archiving musical history (and not just jazz.) I think also there needs to not be this line between musicians and intellectuals in the black community. The people who do the achiving don’t view oldies as “artsy” or intellectual enough to care about. You know how the Talented Tenth and Jack and Jills set are like. There were certain elite black societies you couldn’t even join if you made your money in sports or music and those people still run lots of things.
Possibly a proposal to them that the oldies are important and should be archived in some kind of historic manner might be an interesting project you could undertake Octoberbrown (tell them that white people like oldies now…lol…that always encourages them to want to get involved,) hell I might do it myself since that is such an awesome idea really 🙂
Maybe you could do something as small as the oldies blog, that would be pretty cool. You could put songs up, old bands and interview them, blogging is a great way of archiving current and past events.
Browne
The new music – hip hop would not be here without the old. Many Black children in large poverty stricken urban areas on the east coast were not being taught music in school. They did not have money for instruments or music lessons. So the turntables and their parents old records became their instruments. The music of legends like James Brown, Isaac Hayes, Otis Redding, ZZ Hill, The Delfonics, Aretha Franklin, Bobby “Blue” Bland, Ray Charles, Sly &Family Stone, Willie Hutch, Chitlites and many others, has and continues to play a huge role in hip hop and the new r&b. This is the music these artist sample. So this has never stopped being Black music. It leads younger people to the original musicians. I have no argument with the Chicano community loving this music and making it a part of their culture. But that does no mean it has become Chicano music, but Black music that Chicanos have made a part of their culture. Americans of just about every ethnic persuasion enjoy pizza, but we know that it is an Italian food. Mexican food has become part of the mainstream American diet, but it is still referred to as Mexican food. All Black music is connected. The blues was the secular side of spirituals. ragtime came first then jazz. Prof Thomas Dorsey added blues and a swinging jazz beat to spirituals and created gospel. jump blues & r&b created R&R. soul music is the secular side of gospel. Classic r&b/soul/funk became the foundation for hip hop and new r&b. This music is still being played and danced to by Black people, just in a new form. Chicanos just happen to prefer it in its original form. So this is still and will continue to be Black music.
octoberbrown –
no music belongs to anyone and I was never intending on saying that NO! If I or a white person Bump Oldies in Compton I’m more than Likely to get Dogged or Jumped.. no music belongs to no one but the ppl who have the Copyrights to the Albums. your saying Oldies is called BLACK MUSIC? lol I hear that On VH1..lol
Mexicans Blacks Chinese etc. Don’t have the Copyrights to Oldies they Blacks AND Mexicans Made Oldies. A Mass variety of ppl Listen to them and Support them. Blacks and Mexicans Get uptight when you start a Conversation and things dnt involve them. Its like the Movie Titanic..the Ship sunk in Mexico and the Mexicans didn’t get much recognition 4 the movie. This conversation got out of hand. lolz. Keep the Peace!
Dj Mellowboy
Everything you are saying is right Octoberbrown. New is old and old is new. We are all interconnected.
Now I love that you bring up Hip Hop. When hip hop first came on the seen the black middle class and intellectual type HATED it, really hated it. And to this day I still think lots of black people hate hip hop, as they hated jazz, especially the people who do the documenting in the black community
And to me that is the bigger problem here. The black people who do the documenting wait too late to start documenting things, they wait until mainstream culture says it is ok, before they start placing a value on it. Or they are too afraid to openly place value on it owing to being afraid of what the mainstream society thinks.
When NWA came out the intellectuals who specialized in black culture should have been documenting that scene instead of going on and on about how negative it was and how it was hurting the community. Now 20 years later everyone is all pissed because hip hop is not black anymore, but hey we could have easily documented that, but we didn’t we didn’t view it as valuable because the “wrong type” of black person created it.
And this is a problem with everyone. People don’t respect black culture, chicano culture etc…but the larger issue is people don’t respect the culture of the economically disadvantaged, the poor, the street hustler, the person raised by a single mother. And since alot of black art comes from that unless we can start respecting all classes of people (even the class that drinks a 40) then we will continue to “lose” the documentation of our culture. When someone from Watts with gold teeth, and a jail record does something and creates their art people should be there documenting it, not judging if he’s a good role model for the youth.
When someone from the Ninth Ward of New Orleans, with three kids with three different fathers creates something of value someone should be there documenting it and not putting their moral Christian bs values on her.
As black culture is often stolen, poor black people often have their experiences, art and music stolen from them from black people with a little bit more money. So you’re right on all counts Octoberbrown.
The issue of what you speak is a deep issue. It is fixable, but it’s deep.
Browne
Dj Mellowboy, copyright laws cannot change the identity of the creators. If I owned an original Piscasso they still would not make me the creator.
Browne you are correct there has been a strain of elitism running through the Black community probably since our arrival to these shores. We have been divided by complexion differences, hair texture, education, class and on and on. This is a daunting task but what we are doing right now is education. Others will read these post and do their own research. The internet can do in five minutes what before has taken hundreds of years.