Eastside Gold Line train at 3rd near Rowan
Just read this on the LA Now blog:
L.A. NOW
Southern California — this just in
2 injured in collision between car, Gold Line train
November 26, 2009 | 11:05 pmTwo people suffered minor injuries this evening when their car collided with a Gold Line Metro train in East Los Angeles, authorities said.
The car turned in front of the eastbound train at a crossing near 3rd Street and Rowan Avenue about 8:20 p.m., said Sheriff’s Lt. Greg Hinkle. The two occupants of the car complained of pain and were taken to a hospital, he said.
A California Highway Patrol officer said the pair were riding in a Chevy Malibu, which was towed after the crash.
The one passenger on the train was uninjured.
— Jack Leonard
LA Eastside contributor Browne Molyneux pointed out some of the safety issues of the Eastside Gold Line Extension back in August. In particular she pointed out the nearby intersection where the above accident took place and asked why there weren’t more safeguards like crossing bars. Many of us felt that it would take an accident or worse for Metro to implement some of these much needed changes. How many accidents it will take before the area gets the consideration the residents of South Pasadena received?
What was that, 11 days? And its perfect that it happened on Thanksgiving because that reminds me I didn’t put out a public proclamation of all that things I’m thankful for. But yes, I’m thankful for a city in which certain parts of town get systematically short-changed and the people just have to suck it up, or absorb the impact as the case may be. It’s a constant reminder that shit is messed up.
WOW! I’m amazed it took this long 4 an accident 2 occur.But since the injuries weren’t fatal (which is a good thing)I’m almost positive that NO changes will be made.Council Members where are you?…oh yeah! not giving a damn!
like the orange and blue lines, i guess the real question is are they worth it? does easy east-west travel through the valley and connecting long beach and eastlos with downtown improve people’s lives enough that the accidents are okay? i’ve personally benefited quite a bit from orange, blue and gold lines, so i happen to think so (though the blue line makes that decision harder than it should be). i don’t know the details of this particular accident, but in my view, accidents where the driver is at fault don’t detract from the lines’ value very much, but accidents that are metro’s fault do. i guess i don’t subscribe to the idea that just because metro built it and it doesn’t have every safety measure imaginable, that it’s metro’s fault.
follow the signs and you’ll be safe.
darwinism at play.
Why don’t you ask what the driver was doing? Was there a little Thanksgiving drinking involved? Did the driver make an illegal turn? Did the driver run a red? Unless the signaling system failed, the driver must have ignored the big TRAIN signs illustrated in the photo above. If the driver was paying attention to the that sign, they would know not to turn.
As far as fairness, Metro met CPUC standards on both the Gold Line in Pasadena and the Gold Line on the Eastside. The CPUC does not require crossing arms on street-running light rail. In fact, gates at this intersection are not justified at all. However, the CPUC did require gates on the semi-exclusive right of way in South Pasadena. If the Gold Line were street running in Pasadena, there would be no gates.
Notice that the Blue Line has crossing gates on the semi-exclusive right of way that it shares a freight track with and not in the street-running sections.
I wonder if when there’s an accident in one of the nicer areas involving the MTA train, if there’s as many comments on blogs invoking “darwinism”, and that assume the residents are at fault for being stupid, etc.
It’s really unfortunate that the train had to encroach on the safe holiday travel of the driver and his mighty machines. Driving is usually so safe during holiday weekends.
From 2005: http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=news/state&id=3669872
“Statewide, 19 people were killed in traffic accidents over the Thanksgiving holiday, compared with 32 people killed during the same period last year.”
Wow, what an improvement. Good thing there were less trains back then or it would have been a blood bath.
“I wonder if when there’s an accident in one of the nicer areas involving the MTA train, if there’s as many comments on blogs invoking “darwinism—
No, everybody is racist. You nailed ’em.
Actually, try the comments here: http://sfist.com/2009/11/24/parents_petition_caltrain_to_reduce.php
A group in upscale Palo Alto is petitioning Caltrain to slow trains to 5 MPH to deter teenage suicide. The majority of comments are against the group, talking about how ridiculous their proposal is and that the problem is not the train.
Wow, you mean rich, white parents are being criticized? Who would have thought? In fact, these upscale neighborhoods are opposing high speed rail because it will operate next to their homes, and most people are telling them to go fuck themselves no matter how rich they are.
i’m a resident of boyle heights and i’ve ridden (and driven alongside) the goldline frequently.
the train rides at 35 mph on surface streets.
either the guy wasn’t paying attention, or should not have been given a driver’s license.
darwinism doesn’t discriminate.
I’m sure if this portion of the track was underground this accident would have not happened. However, it sounds like the driver tried to across the track against the signal. And no safety measure can keep people safe from their own stupidity.
Spokker, your example and link doesn’t address my point. Your link is about suicides, not accidents. And, all it demonstrates is that rich kids have to literally jump in front of trains, intentionally, for people to question their intelligence, parenting, and culture in general.
Yes, my one link demonstrates that. What I’ve seen in train/car and train/pedestrian articles is that most of the time, no matter what the ethnicity, no matter what area, people don’t understand how others get hit by trains.
But, by all means, go ahead and continue to claim that everybody is racist.
To invoke Darwin is an insult to the people on the Eastside and to Darwin himself. It doesn’t matter who was at fault or how it happened, what matters is that this could have likely been avoided had there been proper arms that come down to act as a physical barrier against doing the wrong thing. Yeah, people can be educated on the proper way of driving/walking near the train, but that doesn’t change the fact that we are needlessly being put at risk by some bureaucrats that place the relative value of those that live on the Eastside much less than those precious, precious children that are lucky enough to live in South Pasadena.
Why didn’t they practice this survival-of-the-fastest on them?
“Why didn’t they practice this survival-of-the-fastest on them?” El Chavo
Yes why not? I got an idea. Put any rail north of the ten and east of the river at grade and use the money saved to make the MGLEE safe.
How about that solution. People and their smart mouths make me want to slap them.
Every time someone gets hit by a train in South LA or the Eastside people bring up alcohol. That’s disrespectful and f*cked up and prejudice, just so you know. For your info, if any black or Latino person was drunk and got hit by the train the LA Times would make sure to mention that, just like they mention if a black or Latino kid dies if they were or were not gang affiliated.
My patience and my effort to remain civil on this issue is wearing thin. On my ride to investigate the Gold Line someone starting going into “personal responsibility” I had to walk away. I will never go on a ride again.
Browne
Spokker,
From my understanding, the crossing gates at Monterey where not CPUC madated, but rather put in at the behest of local residents. Many people have noted that there needs to be some gated crossings at several intersections, hopefully they will be put in soon.
East LA is also several times more dense than southpas, and has amuch higher rate of ped/bike traffic as well.
Im not crying racism by teh MTA, Im calling laziness. Whether the victims are at fault or not, there needs to be gates at several hairy intersections, period.
And do people know how offended Darwin was about his theory being used towards human behavior. Naturaly selection does not work on the social level for various reasons, and often is used to either demean dismiss a peoples. Not to say the bulk of train collision victims are at fault, but even if so, wouldnt it still be pragmatic for the MTA to put up gates and whatnot to avoid litigation, schedule breakdown and MTA proerty damage?
Spokker, I called everyone a racist? Wow. You’re being a bit dramatic, aren’t you? I didn’t even mention race.
Anyhow, back to the subject matter. I was merely wondering if people on blogs brought the intelligence and culture of train accident victims into question when the accident is in a good area. If you insist they do, I have no reason not to believe you. You would know, after all. However, the lone example you gave demonstrated no such thing. The discussion you linked to was about suicides by train, not accident or human error, which is what I was referring to.
“It doesn’t matter who was at fault or how it happened, what matters is that this could have likely been avoided had there been proper arms that come down to act as a physical barrier against doing the wrong thing.”
No, not really. If a person is going to ignore a red left hand turn signal or a big box that lights up and says TRAIN, they are going to try to beat the train by going around the crossing arms. They’ll speed up as the arms are coming down.
No, what you propose is an erosion of personal responsibility. You want somebody else to be responsible for your safety. Other people can’t be responsible for your safety 100%. You have to follow the rules society has laid down when it comes to navigating the road.
“Every time someone gets hit by a train in South LA or the Eastside people bring up alcohol.”
I suspect alcohol every time there is a car accident no matter where it happens or who the driver is. So fuck off with your righteous indignation.
“On my ride to investigate the Gold Line someone starting going into “personal responsibility†I had to walk away.”
Yeah, your world view is that all non-white and poor groups are victims. Victims of what, a billion dollar investment in the Eastside that other communities would kill to have? If you really cared about people and their transit service, you’d research what’s been going on with the bus service in Orange County. But you probably have a preconceived notion of where I live and the people who live here, and therefore you don’t give a fuck. Correct me if I’m wrong.
“From my understanding, the crossing gates at Monterey where not CPUC madated, but rather put in at the behest of local residents.”
I am looking at Monterey and I also am familiar with the area, but that is a semi-exclusive right of way, so according to CUPC documents gates would be required from the start.
“Many people have noted that there needs to be some gated crossings at several intersections, hopefully they will be put in soon.”
I doubt they will do much good, and I wonder if they are even feasible. Also, gates encourage Metro to run the trains faster, so if someone does go around the gates, they are more likely to be killed.
“The discussion you linked to was about suicides by train, not accident or human error, which is what I was referring to.”
Yes, and in the discussion I linked to, people were criticizing rich, white parents for not taking care of their kids and their mental problems, and instead blaming the train. You said, “I wonder if when there’s an accident in one of the nicer areas involving the MTA train, if there’s as many comments on blogs invoking “darwinismâ€, and that assume the residents are at fault for being stupid”
In Palo Alto, parents are at fault for being stupid parents, and not paying attention to their kids and their mental health. Instead of getting it together and putting their depressed teenagers in therapy or proposing to pay more taxes to beef up mental health facilities and outreach, they blame Caltrain for running the trains too fast. If I need to explain it again I will.
“Not to say the bulk of train collision victims are at fault”
Actually, the bulk of train collisions the “victim” is at fault.
“wouldnt it still be pragmatic for the MTA to put up gates and whatnot to avoid litigation, schedule breakdown and MTA proerty damage?”
Litigation should be thrown out of court. Delays and damage are a concern, but it depends which costs more, delays and damage from the occasional collision or the cost of additional safety features and their maintenance. Keep it mind that additional safety features don’t prevent all accidents, so there are still costs to be borne from damage and delays.
Spokker
November 27th, 2009 | 8:06 pm
“I suspect alcohol every time there is a car accident no matter where it happens or who the driver is. So fuck off with your righteous indignation.”
…….
Spokker, you should really see if MTA offers you guys anger management courses. And if you’re not an MTA employee, find a hobby, man. They’re not paying you anything to get this worked up trying to defend them. You’re swearing at people, for merely disagreeing with you. How sad. And, as far as righteous indignation goes, you’ve got a lot of nerve lecturing others for it. Every one of your pretentious comments here have been filled with righteous indignation, trying to make anyone who doesn’t support MTA’s safety standards somehow feel guilty for it. That’s your entire mission here.
And, for the 3rd time, there is a difference between everyday citizens and/or blog commenters criticizing parents whose kids willfully jump in front of trains, with every intention of the train hitting them, which is called suicide, and criticizing anyone, or their parents, for merely getting into an accident with a train. You’re obviously missing that distinction. But then again, considering the language and tone you’ve taken with Art, it’s obvious you’re here to pick fights, anyway, so I’m not surprised.
“You’re swearing at people, for merely disagreeing with you.”
No, I was accused of being prejudiced. I think people who support at-grade light rail in LA are sick and tired of it. Others will quiet down and not debate bullies like the browne’s and the Damien Goodmon’s of LA because they don’t want to be accused of being racists, but I’m not scared of them at all.
“Every one of your pretentious comments here have been filled with righteous indignation, trying to make anyone who doesn’t support MTA’s safety standards somehow feel guilty for it.”
And yet it’s okay when others use race and class to make others feel guilty for disagreeing with them. If you agree with Metro’s safety standards, then you’re prejudiced. If you suspect influence of alcohol in an accident, then you obviously only suspect alcohol when it happens to Hispanic or black drivers and therefore you are prejudiced.
Some people use race as a weapon. People who are proud of rail coming to the Eastside are made to feel guilty for supporting it because, hey, if you support you support little Hispanic children getting run over by trains! Please. Read browne’s rhetoric and tell me who needs anger management classes.
“there is a difference between everyday citizens and/or blog commenters criticizing parents whose kids willfully jump in front of trains, with every intention of the train hitting them, which is called suicide, and criticizing anyone, or their parents, for merely getting into an accident with a train.”
There is no distinction in that both make you irresponsible.
“If a person is going to ignore a red left hand turn signal or a big box that lights up and says TRAIN,”
You make it seem as if everything in those intersections is perfectly clear and the signage is easy to follow. It couldn’t be bad design that allows for people to run into trains, its a desire to get hit by trains. So why did the curbed people almost get hit by the test trains?
Since folks on the Eastside are just too stupid, why doesn’t South Pasadena lend us the equipment they have in place, since they’re smart enough not to need it. Once we get up to speed, we will give them back. Promise.
“You make it seem as if everything in those intersections is perfectly clear and the signage is easy to follow.”
In California you have to take a test that attempts to make sure you are qualified to read and understand the myriad of signs on our roads and highways. The signage and street configurations on the Eastside Extension are no more complicated than other streets without trains. If you can handle driving around the parts of LA without light rail, then you can handle driving around light rail. If not, then I think you should hand in your license.
I’ll make anyone a deal. If you’ve got the gas money I will drive around the Eastside Extension all day and show you how to properly drive. In fact, I will drive no different than I do in the rest of Southern California, that is, obeying the rules of the road and respecting the other users of it, including pedestrians, cyclists, trains and other drivers.
“It couldn’t be bad design that allows for people to run into trains, its a desire to get hit by trains.”
There is no desire to get hit by trains, but to save a few seconds, or text, or talk on a cell phone, or the myriad of things drivers do when they lose focus on the road. Bad design? The signs *tell you* when a train is coming. I wish there were signs that told pedestrians that a car is speeding around a corner and not watching for people using the crosswalk.
“So why did the curbed people almost get hit by the test trains?”
They ran a red light.
“Since folks on the Eastside are just too stupid, why doesn’t South Pasadena lend us the equipment they have in place, since they’re smart enough not to need it.”
Doesn’t bother me. If I see flashing red lights up ahead, I know to stop whether there are crossing arms or not. I stop when buses flash their reds even when no one else does. I once stopped for a bus flashing its reds and somebody laid on the horn, went around me and flipped me off.
Clearly, the most dangerous element out on the road is drivers. If you want to make streets safer, get rid of them first. But, hey, if want driving then drivers are going to have to learn how to behave around trains, and other cars, and pedestrians, and cyclists…
I mean, listen, when drivers hit pedestrians by running reds or not paying attention, it wasn’t their desire to hit pedestrians right? Just one simple mistake… Just don’t say that on Streetsblog. They will fuck you up.
The California Driver Handbook has rules for dealing with these deadly trains. If a driver cannot understand all of these rules then I would recommend that they turn in their license for the benefit of society, because if they can’t keep from hitting trains, how are they going to keep from hitting people and cyclists?
Anyway, here’s what the handbook says about trains.
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/speed_limits.htm#speedrrx
Here’s another section specifically for light rail vehicles.
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/shr_bus_sc_trly_ev.htm#lrv
Can we handle this, guys?
Now we are getting driving instructions from you? And coming up next, proper walking tips for the urban nitwit. Ah yes, if only we all followed the law, then we would live in paradise. To demand some basic safety protections, now that’s pie in the sky.
It would be one thing if safety arms that come down to stop cars and people hadn’t been invented yet, and we were stuck without them. It’s something else entirely when we don’t get them because we are not worth the extra cost. Your self-responsibility mantra cannot right this wrong.
“It’s something else entirely when we don’t get them because we are not worth the extra cost.”
Most street-running light rail lines do not have crossing arms. Go to San Francisco http://www.flickr.com/photos/pbo31/207569736/sizes/l/ . Go to Houston http://www.flickr.com/photos/pfrench99/2448602245/sizes/l/ . You will not find many crossing gates, if any. If you want to play the victim and lament that “you’re not worth the extra cost” go right ahead. But this type of rail usually does not have crossing gates. It doesn’t matter if it’s East LA or not.
If this portion of the track were underground, they probably would have hit another car, or bicyclist, or pedestrian, or pole. Bad drivers are just bad drivers.
If you want to label asking for basic safety measures as an example of being a “victim”, then you go right ahead. But you are not going to convince me that we are just as safe without them.
Spokker, you accused me of calling “everyone” a racist, when I never even mentioned race. Did I tell you to “fuck off”? If I was as childish as you, I would have, because you most certainly accused me of being a racist, even if in the “reverse” variety.
You’re the drama queen here looking for a race war. Nobody on this thread even mentioned race until you accused me of calling people racists, when I never did any such thing. Scroll up and see the comments for yourself. You brought up race before anyone else. YOU. Not Browne, not Art, not myself, but YOU. My comment didn’t even invoke race. I just said better neighborhood, as in, financially. Unless you believe that a better neighborhood means a whiter neighborhood. Maybe that’s why you made the assumption? You associate white with better?
And, regarding my point in my first comment, I’m going to post it again, and see if you can understand it after having explained to you for a FOURTH TIME,
……….
RobThomas
November 27th, 2009 | 1:46 pm
I wonder if when there’s an accident in one of the nicer areas involving the MTA train, if there’s as many comments on blogs invoking “darwinismâ€, and that assume the residents are at fault for being stupid, etc.
……….
Pay attention. I said “accidents”. You gave a link where blog commenters were criticizing a political action group of sorts who wanted the trains to go 5 mph to prevent train jumpers, in other words, suicide cases! They were not mocking Palo Alto residents for being stupid or inferior for getting into mere accidents with trains built at-grade. So, your link does nothing to address my point. There were no accidents they were talking about involving the Cal Train. They were talking about people who wanted the trains halted because people were committing suicide via those trains.
Nobody here is asking that trains go 5 mph in non residential stretches or subways to prevent suicides, Spokker. They’re just asking for guard rails and things of that sort, to make the lines safer, not completely accident proof. Do you get it now? Or do I have to explain it to you 5 times?
I know part of the reason you’re just not grasping this distinction is because you’re obviously here to fight, which is evident by your swearing. And, as far as Browne accusing you of being prejudice? Does that really warrant a “fuck off” response? Prejudice just means to prejudge, and you did just that. The first possibility you brought up is that someone was drunk, as if that’s the most likely scenario, not a new rail line built with half hazard safety standards.
“If you want to label asking for basic safety measures as an example of being a “victimâ€, then you go right ahead.”
When they install gates, and people go around the gates, who will you blame then? And how is going around gates any different than ignoring a traffic signal?
“You brought up race before anyone else. YOU. Not Browne”
Her entire blog is about race. Everything she says is about race and class. This area has this because they are white and rich and this area doesn’t have this because they are poor and black. That’s her whole shtick.
I agree with her to a certain extent, but I don’t blame the ills of society on a goddamn train. Putting a billion dollars into an area by building a light rail line, 1.8 miles of it underground by the way, that’s a good thing. I would love to see that kind of investment in my community.
“I just said better neighborhood, as in, financially.”
The implication being that financially well off neighborhoods are whiter, and that Internet pundits will not criticize white people for getting hit by trains. You were trying to contrast East LA with a wealthier neighborhood to prove that people are more okay with poor Latinos from being run over or hit by trains. I’m saying that’s just not true. People who live in wealthier neighborhoods are criticized for acting stupid around trains too. Even if that’s not what *you* meant, it’s what a lot of people reading your comment would infer.
By the way, we don’t know the ethnicity of the driver anyway.
“And, as far as Browne accusing you of being prejudice? Does that really warrant a “fuck off†response?”
Absolutely. 100% yes.
“Prejudice just means to prejudge, and you did just that. The first possibility you brought up is that someone was drunk, as if that’s the most likely scenario,”
She was accusing me of bringing up that possibility because the area is Latino. I bring up that possibility no matter where accidents happen. When some dipshit runs his Mercedes into a pole in South Orange County, guess what comes to mind first? Alcohol.
Also, the first possibility that this blog brings up is that Metro is at fault. There’s no discussion of the driver’s possible behavior anywhere.
“not a new rail line built with half hazard safety standards.”
The rail line was not built with half hazard safety standards. The line follows standards of other comparable light rail lines across the country and the world.
I’m surprised Rob Thomas didn’t mention Hitler in his comments about trains in the Eastside.
If anyone knows where the NTA train runs parallel to San Fernando road in Burbank, they would know about the many accidents at San Fernando and Grandview where there are crossing gates. But of course since an accident happened on the Eastside it was the “Man’s” fault.
Somebody call the whaaaambulance.
Spokker, you are a dishonest troll. I called you on the fact that you were the first one to mention race on this thread, at THIS blog, and your only response, instead of just owning up to it, considering it is well documented and on display for anyone reading this blog to see, is to twist and squirm out of it and just flat out put words into my mouth, insisting that I must have meant race when I never invoked race in any way. You told someone to “fuck off” for doing the same to you. But I’m not going to sink down to that level. Instead, I’ll just leave you with this. Im interested in learning more about the MTA, it’s vision, it’s mission, and its safety standards, just not from a pathological liar like you. So you’re wasting your breath when explaining anything to me having to do with MTA, because frankly, you’re not worthy of speaking for them in my view. Have them send someone else.
WWTD? What Would Thomas Do?
Stupid people turn infront of an incomming train.
Why are they only protecting stupid people from S. Pasadena?
Francisco, why would I, or anyone, mention Hitler when talking about Metro trains? After all, we’re talking about trains here, not George W. Bush or the LAPD.
I was going to respond to all of this, but no screw this…you want to have a proper discussion fine, you want to go into the fuck yous and all of that, no screw it. I am no longer dealing with you Spokker. This is my last response to you ever.
Browne
Browne, just wanted to say that you and those here at LA EastSide have done an excellent job reporting on safety issues with the light rail. Most people appreciate what you guys do. Don’t forget that. But I’m sure you guys already know it. Thank you for keeping us informed.
“Actually, the bulk of train collisions the “victim†is at fault.”
Im sorry, I meant “arent at fault”, but mistyped. Since we both contribute to the same transit board, as las my being an advocate of rail transit (especially in eastlos) noted repeatedly, I’d of thought you might recognize what perspective I am coming from before you jumped down my throat. apparently not.
I get it, the bulk of folks who drive into trains are at fault, and I’d bet the same with the car today in the accident. When I did a comparative analysis of blue and gold line accidents the driver was at fault every single time. And since that precedence exists, and in reality occurs repeatedly, it would be pragmatic for the MTA to put in gates to avoid litigation, expenses and service disruption.
“Litigation should be thrown out of court.”
And lollipops should grow from trees. Back in the real world, many of these cases go through, and the MTA spends an absurd time defending themselves in cases where they are not at fault. The defense of “darwin’s theory” holds no weight in court, nor do your dismissals, so again it would be pragmatic for the MTA to avoid litigation fees, property damage and service interuption by putting in gates where possible.
I would also note that there is absolutely NOWHERE where a similar at-grade rail alignment going through such a dense community that endures massive traffic crushes daily occurs. I am talking about the S-curve from lorena to 3rd. East LA also has some of the highest pedestrian-auto related death rates in the nation, which is why pedestrian upgrades are overdue here.
In the cities and areas where trains run at0grade you note, the community character and pedestrian facilitation is far different from east la, so the “they do this in amsterdam and sf” argument is somewhat of a red herring.
I support the eastside goldline, and have so since it was in the conceptual phase. I attended and contributed to meeting half a decade ack where i noted my elation with this train, but also my concerns that have now come to fruition with the train.
One does not cancel out the other. I doubt anyone here loathes the train, and to the contrary I bet most here are extremely excited about the esgl. It just so happens thatpeople also have safety concerns, and it is counterproductive to dismiss or demean them for thinking so. I am college trained in transportation planning, and the concerns expressed by folks here are perfectly valid considering the design of the alignment.
That being said, the train has some issues, but the major factor in almost all train-car/ped collisions is negligence on the auto-ped.
“In the cities and areas where trains run at0grade you note, the community character and pedestrian facilitation is far different from east la, so the “they do this in amsterdam and sf†argument is somewhat of a red herring.”
What makes them different and why should those differences matter?
SF is extremely dense and congested, its population density is as high as East LA’s, yet they have street-running light rail.
I have no problems with someone saying that the line is unsafe or that they dislike at-grade light rail, even though I disagree with them. But I do have a problem when people say it’s unsafe and that it was motivated by race or class warfare or Metro pitting different areas against each other. I’ve linked to the CPUC requirements for light rail in street-running and semi-exclusive configurations. Again, if there was an available ROW on the Eastside for light rail, they would have put it there and there would be gates.
If people want to get the CPUC requirements changed, then go for it and try. But they are applied to proposed rail lines no matter who lives there. If you think Metro’s grade crossing criteria sucks, then attack it, but the criteria is, again, applied to proposed rail lines no matter who lives there.
“It just so happens thatpeople also have safety concerns, and it is counterproductive to dismiss or demean them for thinking so.”
My attitude is simply a response to people who I believe demean and dismiss people who want the best for LA’s mass transit network but happen to support at-grade light rail. The chatter is not civil on both sides much of the time. It’s the Internet after all.
“What makes them different and why should those differences matter?”
Let’s see:
The SF communities mentioned have had street running lrt for over half a century, and were partially developed along that infrastructure.
the pedestrian quality is much better than in east la.
The areas are far less auto oriented than east la, meaning slower cars and more cautious drivers.
not one road these lrt lines run down are feeders into downtown sf
they have far less auto traffic and flow than 1st and 3rd
east la has one of the highest rates of auto-ped death in the nation, the other ones dont
The issue is not as cut and dry as you seem to frame it. Much of what you say hold validity, but the issue is not clearly black and white. The MTA has a history and precedence of inequity in their behavior (hence the BRU, consent decree, etc.) and it correct for people to assume business as usual with the organization. Just because the line is built int he barrio does not mean it is automatically going to be equitable in terms of safety mitigation, although overall the line is an infrastructure improvement. Whether or not the CUPC takes traffic mitigation differently between monterey and 3rd, 3rd has far more traffic and is in a far denser area, so crossing gates seem appropriate.
A plague on all of your houses! Ride the metro, drive safely, take your time, and preserve life. It seems pretty simple, just slow down. This web is much too complicated.
Art, I agree with some of the things you say, but…
“The SF communities mentioned have had street running lrt for over half a century, and were partially developed along that infrastructure.”
LA also had street-running trolleys for decades. It was good decades ago but now it’s bad? SF also suffered a downfall and subsequent rise of street-running rail over the course of its development.
“The areas are far less auto oriented than east la, meaning slower cars and more cautious drivers.”
Oh, boy, many a San Franciscan would disagree. There’s a whole series on YouTube called People Behaving Badly and half their stories are about bad drivers. Of course, this is a subjective thing, but I doubt a lot of people would say SF drivers are saints.
Also, the car dependency of Los Angeles will, or should, decrease the more light rail lines are built. It takes time.
“The MTA has a history and precedence of inequity in their behavior (hence the BRU, consent decree, etc.)”
And others say that the BRU did more harm than good. Just because there is a BRU doesn’t mean that there is evidence of transit racism. They complained of crowded buses, well shit, that’s the bus for you. It can’t handle LA transit loads on its own. If they really wanted to get the people who are currently crammed into buses on the 720 some relief, they’d support the Wilshire subway. If they wanted less auto dependency in LA they would support what SF did, that is, build heavy rail (BART) and light rail (Muni Metro).
Also, fares were already low and hadn’t been raised for a long time. We still have one of the lowest fares in the nation among big ass transit agencies. They wanted better buses and better service, but didn’t want to pay even a little bit more for it. How fair is that?
In any case, that organization may very well be a scam perpetuated by Eric Mann and unionized labor interests (subways and light rail have higher capacity, hence the need for less drivers, get it?) who uses their poor members as pawns. They have been accused of that sort of thing by a few people.
It isn’t as cut and dry as you frame it.
I guess people here never drove on the newly constructed Car-Pool lane along the 55-Freeway. When first installed there were accidents, on an almost daily basis. Stupid drivers would pull into the car- pool lane from a dead stop in front of a car traveling at 55MPH, guess what accidents occured.
Yes those white rich folks in Orange County were not protected from each other, there was a only double yellow line and a persons judgement stopping a person from causing a crash on the 55 freeway car-pool lanes.
Over time, the fools driving on the freeway learned to properly use the car-pool lanes, and not cross the double yellow line into the path of a car traveling at 55mph.
It would seem an obvious, NOT to pull out in front of a car traveling at a high rate of speed unless there are several hundred of distance for you to accelerate to the same rate of speed, but fools learn the hard way.
After the train is operating in East L.A for a longer period of time, the fools in cars, will learn to respect the big train a and obey the traffic signs.
But there a few persons here, who have to blame the Hipsters, Westside gavachos, and etc. for all the “evils” they see in the Eastside.
Mass transit is way over due in the Eastside, Westside, Northside, Southside and all over Southern California. I say let the trains roll and get the hell out the way when you see it coming.
Francisco’s comment is like a breath of fresh air in what’s become somewhat of a polluted atmosphere.
But this IS LA and that’s going to happen.
I guess each of us can lament some shortcoming or other with modern transportation, but the facts are: that these operations are in place. They can be modified and safety bolstered in time. This is LA. Even our bedrock is in flux!
We should all exercise our rights to protect our asses, and quit waiting for the asses to protect us!
Let’s make it simple, eh?
I am glad the Eastside Gold Line train exists.
Los Angeles needs more methods of public transportation, even if it inconveniences drivers.
East Los Angeles should have got crossing bars like Highland Park and South Pasadena.
These crossing bars are most important around 3rd and Indiana, site of the accident.
People of all races and ethnicities can make poor decisions and have accidents.
People of all races and ethnicities find the 3rd and Indiana intersection confusing. A Westside White woman wrote about her confusion at the Curbed blog recently.
Eastside neighborhoods have continually been short changed, overlooked and have lacked city services. The reason? class and race.
There are plenty of books on Los Angeles history, I suggest some of you read them.
thank you, chimatli. holy crap does shit get discivil quickly.
my only very subtle and minor disagreement is that i think the eastside extension is an example of the city providing services in a short-changed place. though their motivation probably has more to do with currying favor with construction companies than helping the neighborhood, i’m still glad it happened.
are people really against greater safety measures? my original point was that even as it exists with its poor safety, it’s still a good thing. i thought it was just a given that anything that can be done to prevent accidents should be.
and, to throw one more wrench in, even with crossing gates, someone has tried to drive around them and was hit by a gold line train. i will invoke the words “stupidity” and “personal responsibility” on that particular person.
Im glad we can have some civil discourse, spokker:)
And I agree that this issue is not cut and dry, but the finite amount of space to write things and the fact that my wife doesnt like me spending hours on teh computer make me ration my comments.
“LA also had street-running trolleys for decades. It was good decades ago but now it’s bad? SF also suffered a downfall and subsequent rise of street-running rail over the course of its development.”
My point isnt if LA had trains or not, its that this area (east la) have not had trains in them for over half a century. Several generations have passed, and people are not used to them anymore. While riding el tren Ive noticed how many folks of all demographics note that the ROW seems unsafe, whether accidents are the fault of ignorant behavior or not.
“Oh, boy, many a San Franciscan would disagree. There’s a whole series on YouTube called People Behaving Badly and half their stories are about bad drivers. Of course, this is a subjective thing, but I doubt a lot of people would say SF drivers are saints.”
I used to live in the yay area, the pedestrian atmosphere is much better in almost all of the city than most of LA. SF may have
bad drivers, but the built environment is much more conducive to walking and much less auto oriented. More square curbs, wider sidewalks, narrower streets and many more street trees and furniture to shield peds from vehicles. Cars drive slower and are more cautious. LA has a much higher ped death rate by autos, and this part of the city has some of the highest ped death rates of any urban area. East LA was treated as a traffic funnel for downtown for the past half century, even the most neglected ped environs in the bay area like oakland or richmond are much better for walking than east la.
Reagrding the BRU, I agree that their existence does not mean mean that transit inequity exists in the MTA. I dont like the org much either, and had almost became a member before I went to several meetings and was turned off to the overvictimization, as well as my discovery of the transit coalition. But the fact that thousands of working class minorities (like myself at one point) who use the bus/train daily agree with their basic premise and continue to pay membership dues and invest their scant time and resources says a lot, and is a pretty good indicator of things not being so equitable in MTA actions. I know the whole eric mann spiel, but also recognize how horribel and inequitable transit has been in LA for a long time, despite the tremendous leaps it has taken the past decade.
I have argued with BRUsters many times (always on teh train), tripping on how they can claim rails are racist when the lines under construction are for east and south la. I think we agree on their BS, but differentiate on our views about the existence of transit inequity in the MTA.
Like i said, you know me and who I am, as a long time TC member and contributor to their forum. You should know from ym prior comments that I dont take racism or inequity lightly, as someone who genuinely wants to mitigate those issues, and I especially dont tolerate any overvictimization nonsense when the our resources need to be devtoed to fighting real inequity (hence my disgust of the bru and many other cultural politics organizations). That being said, transit inequity still exists in the MTA, it is not run by the people who are the main demographic using PT, so it is bound to exist (albeit less than before). I grew up on the bus in east la, followed transit for the past 1.5 decades and am a staunch believer in equity as well as action being more of a tool than whining.
The original goldline was going to have 2 stops in la city limits, and a dozen in pasa and southpas. The lackluster reality of many heavilly used bus stops to this day (my grandma tripped over a cut bus pole and broke her nose/has permanent damage from the MTA half assedly cutting a pole and leaving a 2 inch stub at her east la bus stop about a year ago) while stil ltrying to court the BS notion of upper demographic riders, who are fickle and a waste of time.
I dont know about that other tangent you went off on about fares and the BRU, as I agree that much of hat they have to say and do are bullshit.
I know because the northern OC needs rail as well, and east la got it and people are complaining may dismay you, but much of the critique has merit. I left comments about the very issues that are now concerns with the MTA and the TC forum half a decade ago, they chose to ignore them and now look. And Im no nanny state advocate, I go to inner city schools and teach kids about environmental justice, which always begins with being responsible for their own actions.
What concerns me is the amount of distracted drivers on the road. I may be responsible for myself but I can’t be responsible for the thousands of other drivers. I have a fear of suburban moms driving their huge SUVs high on prescription drugs while trying to calm down their bratty kids in the back seat. I can easily see some person like this not paying attention to the road very well and causing an accident.
If I’m riding the Gold Line and my train gets hit, how is that my personal responsibility? Crossing gates provide one more level of protection and a visual deterrent.
With Spokker’s logic, we might as well as get rid of seat belts, the health department and traffic lights.
It was not that long ago when we did NOT
1) Have seat belt laws.
2) Motorcycle Helmet Laws
3) Labels on irons teeling you to take off your shirt before ironing it.
I enjoyed having less government rules and less taxes taken from me and my family.
Back in the 80’s a person could open a small business without hundreds of local laws and rediculous fees putting you out of business before you got started. And a college education was virtually free back in the 70s’ – 80’s.
And despite Big Government not holding our hands as we crossed the street, by some miracle of GOD many of us survived.